Rifling. Old subject but not really

[Swampbuck]

There has been the debate over button vs cut rifling for years.

Propenents of button claim a superior internal finish with no tooling marks and easier cleaning and break in.

Proponents of cut rifling claim more consistent twist (not sure this matters considering the gain twist rave) less stress and longer lasting barrels.

This is an old debate but I have never heard any cut rifled advocates say how much longer do they think cut rifles barrels last. 10, 15, 20%???

I know that this is hard to quantify. But all else being equal, cool down periods, same caliber, barrel heat, cleaning regimen. What would you say if you had to give a percent? I have heard anything from 0 difference to 3 times as long

 

[butchlambert]

Worn out? What do you call worn out? Even when I shot a lot, I don't think I ever wore one out, I just became unhappy with it. Did that along time ago. I was not happy the way aHart barrel was shooting on my Panda. Gave the barrel to a friend to put on his Panda. His first group with it in Midland was an .090.
Everybody's idea of when a barrel is worn out is different.

 

[JohnKielly]

Can't report on this. My chosen barrel manufacturers don't button.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

There is as much variation in barrel life within the same manufacturer as there is between them. Some barrels quit shooting soon others last a little longer. Its a gamble. More importantly is how they shoot. While cut barrel are dimensional better they rely on the mills stress reliving process, good buttons do a very good stress relieving process. Im a steel guy when it comes to barrels. I'll take the better piece of steel regardless of how it was rifled.

 

[ShootDots]

I have had numerous barrels BOTH button and cut-rifling. I believe "generally speaking" cut-rifled barrels will hold their accuracy longer than button-rifled. However, I have had a couple of cut-rifled barrels go south in amazingly short time frames. I believe the culprit was the barrel steel was not up to par. I have also had a barrel or two, in both button-rifled and cut-rifled barrels last A LOT longer than expectation would have said their lives would be. I have had some amazingly accurate barrels on BOTH sides of this aisle>>>and some "bummers" (opposite of hummers)... Having said all that, I DO believe that cut-rifled barrels hold their accuracy "somewhat" longer than button-rifled barrels do. I have had MANY, MANY barrels, however, in the grand scheme of things, my sampling would still be considered as small..

 

[ireload2]

Those proponents must not have much experience with run of the mill button rifled barrels that are covered with reamer marks on top of the lands from end to end.

Quote

• Propenents of button claim a superior internal finish with no tooling marks and easier cleaning and break in.

 

[Stan Taylor]

Those proponents must not have much experience with run of the mill button rifled barrels that are covered with reamer marks on top of the lands from end to end.

Quote

• Propenents of button claim a superior internal finish with no tooling marks and easier cleaning and break in.

Well it would be very interesting for you to eleborate on what you are seeing on chatter across the lands are they in groove also.

 

[ireload2]

I never mentioned the word chatter.
What do you think reamer marks are?
The button irons most of the reamer marks flat in the grooves but leaves most of the reamer tool marks visible on the land.

Well it would be very interesting for you to eleborate on what you are seeing on chatter across the lands are they in groove also.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

On a button barrel, if it had tool marks- chatter, reamer marks, stripes, whatever wouldnt there be a corresponding mark on the groove just like the land? I mean that same metal is there its just displaced. We need a button barrel maker to chime in if only we had one

 

[IdahoSharpshooter]

I have lost his name, but there was a gentleman in Kali that offered a barrel twist checking service. He told me that a button rifled barrel could have a non-continuous twist. It seemed that barrels could have an occlusion, either a soft or hard spot, and the button would momentarily speed up or down depending on whether the button hit a soft spot or hard spot. That seemed to make sense, since button rifled barrel makers all seemed to offer, at extra cost, "air-gauged" barrels.
That is something that has always bothered me. Why I should have to pay extra to get a quality barrel is beyond me. Are they making second class barrels, or just running them and seeing how good they are? Or aren't...

He claimed that he had never seen a cut rifled barrel offered with the same various grades. Neither have I.

I would guess you all know how button rifled barrels are produced. The makers use a button with their preferred rate of twist and use air pressure to push or pull it thru a barrel. There are air pressure gauges that are monitored to insure at least a minimum level during each barrels rifling. Buttons are only made in fixed dimensions. One depth of lands and grooves, and one twist.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Pushing a button with air? I bet it takes a huge air supply

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Heres a video on a douglas barrel.

 

[LHSmith]

Pushing a button with air? I bet it takes a huge air supply

And for makers who pull the button, I'm guessing they suck it through with vacuum.

 

[butchlambert]

I have lost his name, but there was a gentleman in Kali that offered a barrel twist checking service. He told me that a button rifled barrel could have a non-continuous twist. It seemed that barrels could have an occlusion, either a soft or hard spot, and the button would momentarily speed up or down depending on whether the button hit a soft spot or hard spot. That seemed to make sense, since button rifled barrel makers all seemed to offer, at extra cost, "air-gauged" barrels.
That is something that has always bothered me. Why I should have to pay extra to get a quality barrel is beyond me. Are they making second class barrels, or just running them and seeing how good they are? Or aren't...

He claimed that he had never seen a cut rifled barrel offered with the same various grades. Neither have I.

I would guess you all know how button rifled barrels are produced. The makers use a button with their preferred rate of twist and use air pressure to push or pull it thru a barrel. There are air pressure gauges that are monitored to insure at least a minimum level during each barrels rifling. Buttons are only made in fixed dimensions. One depth of lands and grooves, and one twist.

Where in the "ell did you hear this Rich, on the internet? Shilen's Swap Meet will be April 14th. Climb into your Jag a were and come down for a lesson in barrelmaking at a button rifle facility.
Stu Harvey wanted to sell me that machine, that he bought from the original builder. Remember for a fee he would graph the ID and twist of your barrel for a substantial fee.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Stu Harvey wanted to sell me that machine, that he bought from the original builder. Remember for a fee he would graph the ID and twist of your barrel for a substantial fee.

Was it invented by the juenke man or the barrel freeze or superman coating guy- the grandson of the famous snake oil salesman?

 

[butchlambert]

Was it invented by the juenke man or the barrel freeze or superman coating guy- the grandson of the famous snake oil salesman?

Now, how did you know this!

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Now, how did you know this!

I just suspected it. I was so excited to spin bullets until i spun one on different days. It took me a while since in just an old country boy but i finally figured out i needed to dip them in snake oil to really see how to sort them before i shot them in my frozen barrel. I was doing good until tommy mckee shook a chicken foot over my rail. Havent shot good since.

 

[butchlambert]

I just suspected it. I was so excited to spin bullets until i spun one on different days. It took me a while since in just an old country boy but i finally figured out i needed to dip them in snake oil to really see how to sort them before i shot them in my frozen barrel. I was doing good until tommy mckee shook a chicken foot over my rail. Havent shot good since.

Sure glad that you finally figured it out.

 

[IdahoSharpshooter]

I was referred to him by Dave Brennan. I rode the old bagger down and watched him run a few barrels. He then milled a 700 barrel that showed the "skip" that a hard spot will produce at the sport air pressure had a spike.

No offense, but instead of driving halfway across the country, why don't you just tell me and the assembled multitude here why Shilen has more than one grade of barrel...? Dan Lilja told me that if any of his barrels did not air-gauge he set them aside and bored and reamed and re-rifled them to the next largest caliber.

 

[butchlambert]

I was referred to him by Dave Brennan. I rode the old bagger down and watched him run a few barrels. He then milled a 700 barrel that showed the "skip" that a hard spot will produce at the sport air pressure had a spike.

No offense, but instead of driving halfway across the country, why don't you just tell me and the assembled multitude here why Shilen has more than one grade of barrel...? Dan Lilja told me that if any of his barrels did not air-gauge he set them aside and bored and reamed and re-rifled them to the next largest caliber.

Rich,
Being an old ritter, you can probably read. Go to their webite and read.