Question......22-250 Barrel Twist

[Toby Bradshaw]

The point I’m making is I fail to see the downside to the faster twist.

Less speed and poorer precision with light bullets. Speed flattens trajectory, precision is critical for small targets. This describes a lot of varmint shooting from field positions.

My fast twist 22-250 shoots as well as a slower twist and has the advantage of stabilizing high BC bullets that fight the wind much better than the faster but lower BC bullets.

From 300 yards in, slow twists and light bullets hold all the accuracy records. There's a reason for that.

For varmint shooting at unknown ranges inside 400 yards (e.g., when predator hunting where shots must be taken quickly -- no time to use a rangefinder), flat trajectory is more important than BC.

I have not tried the lighter bullets in my barrel yet, but I suppose I should just in the name I’d science. Every one I have talked to though says they work just fine with no degradation in accuracy.

Depends on the level of precision that you require. Certainly for benchrest-level precision fast twists will not cut it out to 300 yards.

I’d bet that if manufacturers quietly shifted over to an 8” twist, Joe Consumer would never know the difference and those rifle loonies like me would be elated with the ability to shoot wind bucking high BC bullets.

Heavy-for-caliber high-BC bullets have a role to play in long range/known range shooting. But short, light bullets are the cat's a$$ for a lot of varmint shooting, and win all the wood in short-range competition.

 

[AckleymanII]

I would choose a twist for the caliber and bullet that I want to shoot, find a gunsmith that can throat accordingly.

Hondo64, the vast majority of 55-60g, 22 caliber bullets love to be seated at the lands, slight jam, or barely off the lands. This fact may have a huge impact of your success with lighter bullets.

Barrels that are throated for 75g bullets may indeed shoot well with light bullets while the throat is fresh, especially light bullets with more bearing surface vs VLD shape bullets, 55g Sierra semi point and sierra 63g semi point, 52g speer hp, and flat base 55g bullets.

Years ago, I was one of the first to shoot an 8 twist in the 6ppc with the brand new Berger 105's, and the tune window was very narrow. With the long leade required for the 105, I then tried to shoot the 68g bergers...not so good results.

At that time I was shooting thousands of p. dogs per year, and one of those guns was an HBAR that I shot the 55g Sierra BTHP in which shot groups around 3/4". The additional RPM's of the 7T in the HBAR made those normally tough 55's explode the p. dogs with dramatic acrobatics.

So, I built a 223 with a 9 Twist and a 22 PPC with a 9 Twist, both throated with a zero freebore reamer. I had custom 14 twists in both the 223 and the 22 PPC, both of which were easy to tune, the accuacy node and the window for the tune was spread over about 1.5g for each.

When I went with the 9T in the 223 and the 22 PPC shooting 50g Sierra Blitz, 55g Blitz, 50g tnt, 52g benchrest bullets, the tune window became quite narrow, and more temp sensitivity rose it's ugly head. 69g Sierra was the only heavy 22 caliber out then, and it is no p. dog bullet for my likes. Realize, I want to shoot three shot groups that will constantly print .100-.250, with wind flags and Leupold 36x as a load devopment scope.

So, I sold off the 9T 223 and 22 PPC. At this time, Benchmark, varget did not exist, and H322 was not an EXTREME powder at that time.

So, later on down the road, a shooting partner went with a 22/250 and shot the 75g bullets, his only comment was never again, 900 rounds of barrel life...short range coyotes/ chuck shooter. For a dedicated coyote hunting rifle, 900 rounds could be years of good use, but for a steel shooter, your barrel could be toast in no time. My friend wore his barrel out looking for loads and trying to find a bullet that blew up chucks.

I really like hot rods for coyote rounds, as a coyote can take a lot of killing.

22/250 AI with zero freebore, 12T, 60g Berger at 3700 with Winchester 760 gives good barrel life-detonates coyotes. Of all the coyotes I have killed over the years, I think that I have only shot at 5-6 that were between 450-500 yards.

For those Western states where the wind is howling all the time, those 75s in a 22/250 AI will give the best barrel life, acceptable shot strings in beween cleanings, with some super accuracy in the 3400-3500 fps area depending on barrel length. I would have the Rem 700 with a Wyatt's mag box installed.

IF and this is a big IF, you are willing to have a cleaning regiment that strict, then stomp on the gas and go to a 22-6 Rem AI and shoot the 80g A max at 3600 and not have pressure issues with cases like the 22-243 AI has with 80's trying to reach this speed, which is good for deer and hogs also.

The fast twist 22/250, 22/250 AI, 22-243 AI, and 22/6 Rem AI all have about the same barrel life, 900-1200 rounds depending on your use and care. I talked to one guy where he got more usable barrel life with the 80g A max(1500 rounds), perhaps due to bullet length, all he does is shoot coyotes with his 6 Rem AI with a mid pressure load of Retumbo with 3600 velocity(capable of 3700+).

 

[Mark M.]

Thanks guys for the great info.

 

[284winner]

Less speed and poorer precision with light bullets. Speed flattens trajectory, precision is critical for small targets. This describes a lot of varmint shooting from field positions.



From 300 yards in, slow twists and light bullets hold all the accuracy records. There's a reason for that.

For varmint shooting at unknown ranges inside 400 yards (e.g., when predator hunting where shots must be taken quickly -- no time to use a rangefinder), flat trajectory is more important than BC.



Depends on the level of precision that you require. Certainly for benchrest-level precision fast twists will not cut it out to 300 yards.



Heavy-for-caliber high-BC bullets have a role to play in long range/known range shooting. But short, light bullets are the cat's a$$ for a lot of varmint shooting, and win all the wood in short-range competition.

There is alot to be said for your point made. I do remember using that point blank method out to about 400 yards with 50 grain bullets in my 22-250s. A time without playing with turrets or ballistic calculators. That being said, conditions needed to be ideal with those 50s out to the 400 yard line. It was a blast tho. Wood Chuck's flew and barrels sizzled. West Virginia was thick with hogs and we used .22 rimfires and the ole trusty 22-250 and factory 50 gr smk federal premiums.

 

[people]

I think it is a very simple issue. Most guys who are buying factory rifles are hunters. They have no need to shoot anything heavy. It is a varmint rifle as far as they are concerned.

 

[Hondo64d]

Ok, I'm your huckleberry.

Looking forward to seeing your results.

John

 

[long40shot]

Looking forward to seeing your results.

John

Indeed sir. Soon as i can.

Matt

 

[Hondo64d]

Less speed and poorer precision with light bullets. Speed flattens trajectory, precision is critical for small targets. This describes a lot of varmint shooting from field positions.



From 300 yards in, slow twists and light bullets hold all the accuracy records. There's a reason for that.

For varmint shooting at unknown ranges inside 400 yards (e.g., when predator hunting where shots must be taken quickly -- no time to use a rangefinder), flat trajectory is more important than BC.



Depends on the level of precision that you require. Certainly for benchrest-level precision fast twists will not cut it out to 300 yards.



Heavy-for-caliber high-BC bullets have a role to play in long range/known range shooting. But short, light bullets are the cat's a$$ for a lot of varmint shooting, and win all the wood in short-range competition.

Toby,

Who is still using a 22-250 for short range benchrest competition? Nobody that’s winning, regardless of twist. Have you tried a fast twist 22-250 with lighter weight bullets? How much speed do you lose? How much precision? The load shown above that produced the 2.5” group at 710 yards regularly shoots in the .3s to .4s at 100. What sort of groups are you getting with 50s and 55s in your slow twist 22-250s? Enough to overcome the wind advantage of the heavy bullet? A 75gr Amax at 3200 kills a 55gr Vmax at 3500 in the wind. In a 10mph full value wind, By 300 yards, the 75gr Amax has a 4” wind advantage, by 400 a 7” advantage. Your increased precision is not going to help you there. How much disadvantage does the 75gr Amax have over the 55gr Vmax? Let’s see... with the same velocities, and 100 yard zero, they both drop 2” at 200 yards. At 300, the 55gr has a 1” advantage. At 400, still a whoppin’ 1” advantage. At 500, the 75gr pulls ahead and continues to do so after that... Drastically. I will happily give up 1” in trajectory to have that much wind advantage. Your point and shoot argument simply holds no water. Whatever you can do with 55gr at 3500, you can do better with 75gr. And nothing prevents me from loading up and using a 55gr if I want. Until you try a fast twist 22-250 or the like, you simply don’t know what you’re missing.

John

 

[Toby Bradshaw]

What sort of groups are you getting with 50s and 55s in your slow twist 22-250s?

I don't shoot a .22-250 -- too inefficient with light bullets. My coyote calling rifle is a 22BR, shooting 40gr NBTs at 4100 ft/sec. Here are 3 shots at 100 yards from a cold, clean bore.

How much disadvantage does the 75gr Amax have over the 55gr Vmax? Let’s see... with the same velocities,

Why would anyone load a 55gr bullet down to 75gr velocity? In a .22-250 the difference in velocity at the same pressure is 600 ft/sec. The 55gr shoots 2" flatter than the 75gr at 300 yards. That difference matters to me, since a coyote has 5"-6" of body depth.

I will happily give up 1” in trajectory to have that much wind advantage.

It's 2", and I won't give it up. It doesn't matter to me what YOU do.

Your point and shoot argument simply holds no water.

Not if you're shooting squib loads with light bullets. I don't do that.

Whatever you can do with 55gr at 3500, you can do better with 75gr.

Demonstrably untrue, but continue to believe it if you think that 55gr and 75gr bullets have the same muzzle velocity from the same cartridge.

you simply don’t know what you’re missing.

I do know what I'm not missing.

 

[Hondo64d]

Why would anyone load a 55gr bullet down to 75gr velocity? In a .22-250 the difference in velocity at the same pressure is 600 ft/sec. The 55gr shoots 2" flatter than the 75gr at 300 yards. That difference matters to me, since a coyote has 5"-6" of body depth.



It's 2", and I won't give it up. It doesn't matter to me what YOU do.



Not if you're shooting squib loads with light bullets. I don't do that.



Demonstrably untrue, but continue to believe it if you think that 55gr and 75gr bullets have the same muzzle velocity from the same cartridge.



I do know what I'm not missing.

View attachment 1035093

View attachment 1035094

I don't shoot a .22-250 -- too inefficient with light bullets. My coyote calling rifle is a 22BR, shooting 40gr NBTs at 4100 ft/sec. Here are 3 shots at 100 yards from a cold, clean bore.

View attachment 1035091



Why would anyone load a 55gr bullet down to 75gr velocity? In a .22-250 the difference in velocity at the same pressure is 600 ft/sec. The 55gr shoots 2" flatter than the 75gr at 300 yards. That difference matters to me, since a coyote has 5"-6" of body depth.



It's 2", and I won't give it up. It doesn't matter to me what YOU do.



Not if you're shooting squib loads with light bullets. I don't do that.



Demonstrably untrue, but continue to believe it if you think that 55gr and 75gr bullets have the same muzzle velocity from the same cartridge.



I do know what I'm not missing.

View attachment 1035093

View attachment 1035094

You misquoted my post. When I referred to the “same velocities” I was referring to the velocities used in my wind drift example, 3200 and 3500. According to my Hornady manual, the difference in max velocities is 400fps, not 600. I could have bumped them both a 100 fps or a little more but the results would be very similar. My numbers are correct at the velocities stated. To you the trajectory is important, to me trajectory is easy to deal with. It’s the wind that is a real pain in the butt. Carry on.

John

 

[Toby Bradshaw]

Here are the comparative ballistics of three cartridge/bullet combinations, using the muzzle velocities from this site. All trajectories are calculated with the same maximum midrange rise above the line of sight (1.5"), which is the most I will use for coyotes since I'm often shooting at just part of the animal. What you gain in wind drift you lose in trajectory, and vice versa, until you are past 500 yards. There's no free lunch and no cartridge/bullet combo that is universally superior. Horses for courses. [Sorry for the funky font sizes -- lost in translation.]

 

[Hondo64d]

What you gain in wind drift you lose in trajectory, and vice versa, until you are past 500 yards.

I’ll accept that. You’re about 100fps low on top velocity with a 75gr Amax, but I get it. I’m still more concerned with drift, as the wind NEVER stops blowing here, and, as your chart illustrates, the higher BC bullets offer big advantages in the wind.

I still think I’ll find more than acceptable precision when I experiment with some lighter bullets in my 8” twist barrel. Too many folks who have tried it have had favorable results. This would, of course allow me to use the point and shoot approach if I choose. Which is kinda my point. Why limit yourself to a twist that limits you to low BC when you can have one that will do it all?

How much precision do you think I’ll loose because of an 8” twist? What have you observed in your own rifles?

John

 

[284winner]

Light bullets have the edge in PB value. Heavy bullets have the edge in wind and long range. It's not that difficult to figure out some guys like heavies and some like the light bullets. Personally I see advantages of both. Personally I'd prefer a 9 twist barrel in a 22-250 IF and only if I'm shooting both light and heavier in the same gun. A 9 twist shoots 75 amax bullets in a 22-250 fine and shoots 50s as well. Will a 12/14 twist shoot 50s better than the 9 ? Good question. Maybe ! For the difference, I'll still take the 9 twist for my needs. I own 12 & 14 twist .22-250s and mine all shoot about the same as my 9 twist 223 with 50 grain bullets. Its really all matter of preference.

 

[AckleymanII]

Start at the start, match throat in chamber to bullet you want to use...then twist accordingly.

 

[Toby Bradshaw]

How much precision do you think I’ll loose because of an 8” twist? What have you observed in your own rifles?

Beats me. If your freebore keeps a 75 A-Max out of the neck-shoulder junction, you'll be jumping light bullets a mile. I've never found a lot of jump to be anything but bad for precision work, but my standards are high, probably from my days as a competitive BR shooter.

If light bullets, faster twists, and longer freebores shoot to your standards, then you've got it made. Personally, I choose a bullet and then get the twist and freebore best suited to it. Barrels are easy enough to swap.

Edit: I see that Keith beat me to it!

 

[284winner]

Beats me. If your freebore keeps a 75 A-Max out of the neck-shoulder junction, you'll be jumping light bullets a mile. I've never found a lot of jump to be anything but bad for precision work, but my standards are high, probably from my days as a competitive BR shooter.

If light bullets, faster twists, and longer freebores shoot to your standards, then you've got it made. Personally, I choose a bullet and then get the twist and freebore best suited to it. Barrels are easy enough to swap.

Edit: I see that Keith beat me to it!

View attachment 1035139

Your exactly right. For optimum accuracy, the chamber needs to match your cartridge/bullet combination. This doesn't work well for using a variety of bullet combinations without having either a jam or huge jump.

 

[Hondo64d]

Beats me. If your freebore keeps a 75 A-Max out of the neck-shoulder junction, you'll be jumping light bullets a mile. I've never found a lot of jump to be anything but bad for precision work, but my standards are high, probably from my days as a competitive BR shooter.

If light bullets, faster twists, and longer freebores shoot to your standards, then you've got it made. Personally, I choose a bullet and then get the twist and freebore best suited to it. Barrels are easy enough to swap.

Edit: I see that Keith beat me to it!

View attachment 1035139

My barrel has a SAAMI spec freebore and the 75gr Amaxes just kiss the lands with the heel angle of the boat tail a hair above the neck shoulder junction. Common misperception that the long nosed VLD type bullets need a longer freebore. That has not generally been my experience. Usually a shorter freebore is required because the bearing surface is often shorter with a VLD type than on a more conventional bullet, even if it is lighter. I can reach the lands easily with both the 75gr Amax and the 55gr Vmax. In fact, the lighter Vmax has more bearing surface than the much heavier Amax.

John

 

[Whiskey4]

So much information here. I thought I would just lurk and read along, But dang I am more confused now than I was when I started reading !!

 

[Brians356]

View attachment 1035139

What cartridge was that winner? (I'm guessing a 6mm, maybe PPC?)
-

 

[Brians356]

My barrel has a SAAMI spec freebore and the 75gr Amaxes just kiss the lands with the heel angle of the boat tail a hair above the neck shoulder junction. Common misperception that the long nosed VLD type bullets need a longer freebore. That has not generally been my experience. Usually a shorter freebore is required because the bearing surface is often shorter with a VLD type than on a more conventional bullet, even if it is lighter. I can reach the lands easily with both the 75gr Amax and the 55gr Vmax. In fact, the lighter Vmax has more bearing surface than the much heavier Amax.

John

No dog in this scrap, just curious, but have you bothered to see how close you can get a 40 V-max to the lands?
-