Mini-Palma F-class. Too easy?

[Diggs223]

take the scope off put some irons on see how that goes, f-iron

 

[kzin]

take the scope off put some irons on see how that goes, f-iron

I would actually like to do that as an experiment, just not enough to buy iron sights.

 

[XTR]

Yep.
There is one F class shooter on here that used to repeatedly whine because there were so few FTR high masters and so many sling high masters that something should be done. Basically insinuating the sling target must be too large. Once he tried a service rifle I don't think I have seen him mention the target being too large. Interesting how it all changes once a person slings up and has to align sights.

If you are talking about me (and based on our past exchanges I think you are) you misunderstood me. I don't recall that I've ever said that the target was to big in sling (and if I did I was wrong).

I have said that once a shooter learns to build a solid position that it is easier to score well on the sling target based on the scores that I see from good sling shooters compared to those of good F class shooters in similar conditions. In a group of HM sling shooters on an average weekend I am accustomed to seeing 200-# scores. Any time an F-TR shooter shoots a clean anywhere in the country it gets talked about. I have also seen a group of HM sling shooters including a Wimbledon Cup winner shoot an F class match, and they agreed that the target is hard(I think they shot EX scores). On an average day it is certainly easier for a new shooter with decent ammo to put up a SS score on an F class target than on a sling target. They can do it chasing the spotter unless the wind is blowing them to the 7 ring, so from that perspective F class is easier for the beginner.

I have said that HM in long range F class, in particular F-TR relied on getting a really good set of weekends to get the scores to get there and that was not the intent. For the record one of the people who advocated for the proposed changes to the F class classifications a few yrs ago was a past national champion who won the FCNC with an Expert classification (twice I think), at the same time that the World champion also carried an Expert classification.

My argument is and has been that classification should group people of similar skill for competitive purposes and not those who got a good weekend. If it's pertinent I still carry an EX in long range F-TR and I placed in the top 10 at the FCWC, and shot on the second place Rutland Cup team (I was that American on the Canadian KP Ballistics team). The coach made the wind calls but my team score was highest individual score and the 2nd highest V count in F-TR.


Yes, I still think MA and HM classifications are broken in F class, at least for those who shoot F-TR (the open guys seem to do OK with it). I don't have the experience to say one way or the other in sling, and the guys who shoot sling don't seem to have issue with it.

So, nothing has changed the conversation just hasn't come up.

To the point of this thread. Unless you extend the yardage I think that shooting a supported 22LR at 100 yards or less is too easy unless you do it on Rattlesnake Ridge, Raton, Connaught, and maybe Camp Perry where the wind blows, and blows hard.

[edit] ultimately when you are shooting a supported rifle at any range you reduce the variables to the inherent accuracy of the platform and the wind. If the target size does not cause minor wind changes to lose points it's too easy.

 

[Mr. Ten-X]

The first folks that I saw playing that game (Ben Avery), just prior to the Palma Team practice was in early 1999. They used the NRA 200yd smallbore target at 200yds. So, cutting the target size to 50% of that for F-Class...try the NRA 100yd smallbore target and put it AT 200 yards.

Pretty sure it won't be easy-peasy with a 22LR.

 

[Medic505]

Well said Wade.

 

[rminut]

It is amazing how quickly a little stinky bait will pull 'em up from the bottom.
You picked up with this martyrdom since Christ was a corporal, I bet you weren't even an expert yet, and nothing has changed so I can only guess it must be a vast right wing conspiracy to keep you down.
Poor old you must have walked up hill both ways in the snow to school wearing old shower shoes carrying buckets of lead. All that agony just to grow up and be forced to shoot FTR with an NRA jackbooted thug pressing down on your neck while holding a high master card just one inch beyond your outstretched arm.

Meanwhile all us sling shooters make HM by the second relay and then it's just about staying awake during a string because it's so easy to shoot X after X. hell, I use Nosler bullets backwards and I still shoot X's simply because I use a coat and sling. That is why Rhode started his 155 gang because EVERYBODY has shot a 200 in the Leech Cup for the last 25 years straight. It is impossible to point a rifle outside the 10 ring while using a coat and sling.
Actually while I am coming clean...We sling shooters have an inside guy at the NRA, and he takes all the FTR match fees and we (ALL high masters) go on a big ass cruise. I mean we fill every cruise liner there is because there are so many high master sling shooters, more of them everyday you know, and we just laugh and smoke cigars and carry on about shooting X after X with Nolser hunting bullets inserted with a hammer while purposely not watching the wind. That is what we do...

If you really want to hear about a conspiracy to keep people from shooting 200's look at the national records for shooting bullseye pistol at 50 yards with a .45. Only 1 of the 9 national records going back 90+ years is a 200. I know this means nothing to you since you have also insulted pistol shooters before but there are much tougher shooting disciplines than FTR, you are just too blinded by FTR martyrdom to acknowledge that.

Have fun Wade, life it too short to worry about your classification card.

 

[DR_2297]

Actually while I am coming clean...We sling shooters have an inside guy at the NRA, and he takes all the FTR match fees and we (ALL high masters) go on a big ass cruise. I mean we fill every cruise liner there is because there are so many high master sling shooters, more of them everyday you know, and we just laugh and smoke cigars and carry on about shooting X after X with Nolser hunting bullets inserted with a hammer while purposely not watching the wind. That is what we do...

Man was it a good time too! Glad I listened to the 500 or so HM’s in my circle who convinced me to switch to those round nose Trophy Bonded Bearclaws! Expensive but Sooooo worth it. Thank God we get 22 minutes. I really enjoy my mid string naps.

 

[Erud]

I love that you guys are shooting a 100-yard rimfire match with scopes and bipods and calling it “Palma”!

An actual 450 Palma score is considered a lifetime achievement for many. So yeah, I’m pretty sure the target you are shooting is a too easy for F-class.

 

[XTR]

It is amazing how quickly a little stinky bait will pull 'em up from the bottom.
You picked up with this martyrdom since Christ was a corporal, I bet you weren't even an expert yet, and nothing has changed so I can only guess it must be a vast right wing conspiracy to keep you down.
Poor old you must have walked up hill both ways in the snow to school wearing old shower shoes carrying buckets of lead. All that agony just to grow up and be forced to shoot FTR with an NRA jackbooted thug pressing down on your neck while holding a high master card just one inch beyond your outstretched arm.

Meanwhile all us sling shooters make HM by the second relay and then it's just about staying awake during a string because it's so easy to shoot X after X. hell, I use Nosler bullets backwards and I still shoot X's simply because I use a coat and sling. That is why Rhode started his 155 gang because EVERYBODY has shot a 200 in the Leech Cup for the last 25 years straight. It is impossible to point a rifle outside the 10 ring while using a coat and sling.
Actually while I am coming clean...We sling shooters have an inside guy at the NRA, and he takes all the FTR match fees and we (ALL high masters) go on a big ass cruise. I mean we fill every cruise liner there is because there are so many high master sling shooters, more of them everyday you know, and we just laugh and smoke cigars and carry on about shooting X after X with Nolser hunting bullets inserted with a hammer while purposely not watching the wind. That is what we do...

If you really want to hear about a conspiracy to keep people from shooting 200's look at the national records for shooting bullseye pistol at 50 yards with a .45. Only 1 of the 9 national records going back 90+ years is a 200. I know this means nothing to you since you have also insulted pistol shooters before but there are much tougher shooting disciplines than FTR, you are just too blinded by FTR martyrdom to acknowledge that.

Have fun Wade, life it too short to worry about your classification card.

Your profile says you are in SLC. I've got the afternoon to kill, want to meet at Squatters for a beer?

 

[XTR]

I love that you guys are shooting a 100-yard rimfire match with scopes and bipods and calling it “Palma”!

An actual 450 Palma score is considered a lifetime achievement for many. So yeah, I’m pretty sure the target you are shooting is a too easy for F-class.

Yea, the whole "mini Palma" threw me too. There is a "mini Palma" match between NB Canada and New England shooters that has been going on for 40 yrs.

 

[Erud]

Yea, the whole "mini Palma" threw me too. There is a "mini Palma" match between NB Canada and New England shooters that has been going on for 40 yrs.

Yeah, we have them around here too. I think adding the scopes and bipods might just be one step too far. The only remaining similarity to an actual Palma match is that it is 15-shot strings. Might as well just come up with a new name at that point.

 

[kzin]

Yeah, it's a 22 prone match on the "Mini-Palma" target that's been around for years.
We didn't want to tell scope-only or support-only shooters to stay home.
Sling and irons was our single biggest class this first time though.
We had a full house and most are looking forward to next month so good enough for us.


Don't most 800-900-1000 centerfire shoots allow more than just true Palma?

 

[XTR]

F class shooters do shoot the Palma 15 shot, 800-900-1000 yd course, but we're just shooting the Palma course, not competing in as Palma shooters. A Palma rifle defined in 3.3.1 and is a required to be a 308 or 223 with irons sights.

3.3.1 U.S. Palma Rifle—
(a) A rifle with metallic sights chambered for the unmodified .308/7.62 or .223/5.56 NATO cartridge case.
(b) Any service rifle with metallic sites chambered for the unmodified .308/7.62 NATO or .223/5.56 NATO cartridge case.


The New England-BC Canada Mini-Palma is a team event that in recent yrs includes a 4 man F-TR team.

 

[rminut]

Your profile says you are in SLC. I've got the afternoon to kill, want to meet at Squatters for a beer?

No, I have one of those jobs where I don't get afternoons off, abusive I know. I guess it will be as close to FTR conditions as I will get. If you are actually in SLC and like IPA I recommend Squatter's Hop Rising.

 

[XTR]

I am. sitting at the corner of the bar with a polygamy Porter.

 

[rminut]

well you might make a good high master after all.

 

[Mr. Ten-X]

F-Class wasn't even envisioned when the first mini-palma targets were made. It was intended to be a reason for getting people to dust off their smallbore rifles and get onto a range with a distance that anyone could fire at (100yds)...to simulate the Palma target size change from a visual aspect (800/900/1000yds). Not everyone had a dedicated Palma rifle at that time, though many more were thinking about it because interest in Palma was actually growing at the time. Just happen to know the guy that made those original targets and put them in pdf format over on his old Delphi shooting page. His original 1000yd simulated target was challenging with a smallbore rifle unless you had a lots of range flags, etc. Not so challenging for a supported rifle with optics under mundane conditions however.

Think the best I could muster on that 1000yd target was a 199 with like 12-14X's firing a 20-shot string. One tiny puff of wind took that 9 straight out at 9 o'clock. That was with a Kimber rifle from CMP with the sights off of my Palma rifle.

 

[rminut]

I bought a couple hundred of these targets last year to do an afternoon league type practice this coming summer. My question to you guys is whether the mini palma at 100 or the approved 200 yard target is more ammunition critical?


Isn't there already discussion regarding a reduced ring size target for official type f-class matches.

 

[Mr. Ten-X]

My question to you guys is whether the mini palma at 100 or the approved 200 yard target is more ammunition critical?

Am far from being a 200yd smallbore expert. However, I found it much harder to hold elevation on that NRA 200yd smallbore target like the folks were using for their smallbore Palma.

 

[Eric Leonard]

IDK what you would call this but I shoot some smallbore with aperture sights prone off a rest ,like FOpen but with sights on the NRA 100 yard TQ4 target,,I usually shoot a 200 and in the 14-16X range depending on wind,,some days I have shot 18 and 19X`s,,