I saw the post on the 95 Grain .224, but nothing on the others.
This new 200 grainer looks pretty enticing.
This new 200 grainer looks pretty enticing.
New Sierra Matchking
- Thread starter loudandproud
- Start date
Yes, the .22-250 should have no problem pushing the 95 in excess of 3,000 fps.
XTR
F-TR obssessed shooting junkie
Not yet...
I was joking up there. Even if I had them I couldn't start on load work for months up here in the frozen north. It's below zero most nights and not above +10F most days lately, not exactly ideal conditions for load work.
I will say that I am hopeful of both bullets (the 95 and the 200).
I have nothing against Berger, but I've been hoping to see some updated offerings from Sierra for a couple of yrs now. I'm glad to see them show 308 and 223 some love. Choices are not bad.
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Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
Before the salivation starts getting too severe, just be aware that Sierra's BC numbers are G1s for the highest velocity band only, which is to some extent an advertising gimmick. Further, at least some, if not all, of these bullets will come pointed from the factory, meaning there is little you yourself can do to further improve BC by pointing at home. Once the Sierra G1 velocity-banded BC values are averaged, or converted to G7 values, and the effect on BC of pointing the competitors' bullets also taken into account, the BCs of the Sierra offerings may not seem as high relative to other manufacturers' bullet as they may appear solely based on the poster BCs shown above.
For example, I estimate that the 95 gr .224 bullet average G7 BC will likely end up in the 0.285 to low 0.290-ish range. A pointed Berger 90 VLD will run about 0.285 G7 BC, so any BC advantage held by the 95 gr is not going to represent a quantum leap in terms of percent increase, the same is likely true for any/all of these bullets. You can expect modest improvements in BC as compared to existing bullet designs, after all, they are brand new designs. But I think you'll find the BC improvements will be in the range of around 3-7%...not HUGE, but not zero either. I will absolutely shoot the 95s if the precision is comparable to that of the Berger 90 VLD. Any advantage when shooting a .223 in F-TR, even if it's only a small advantage, can be a very big deal. The real keys are going to be how easily loads with these bullets can be tuned, and what kind of precision they're capable of. If both of those factors are solid, then Sierra is going to sell a lot of these bullets.
For example, I estimate that the 95 gr .224 bullet average G7 BC will likely end up in the 0.285 to low 0.290-ish range. A pointed Berger 90 VLD will run about 0.285 G7 BC, so any BC advantage held by the 95 gr is not going to represent a quantum leap in terms of percent increase, the same is likely true for any/all of these bullets. You can expect modest improvements in BC as compared to existing bullet designs, after all, they are brand new designs. But I think you'll find the BC improvements will be in the range of around 3-7%...not HUGE, but not zero either. I will absolutely shoot the 95s if the precision is comparable to that of the Berger 90 VLD. Any advantage when shooting a .223 in F-TR, even if it's only a small advantage, can be a very big deal. The real keys are going to be how easily loads with these bullets can be tuned, and what kind of precision they're capable of. If both of those factors are solid, then Sierra is going to sell a lot of these bullets.
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I suspect key factors will include bearing surface and overall lengths [of the 95gn .224]. If the bullet has a similar length to that of the 90gn Berger VLD, the extra weight may make performance more consistent and without having to go to 6-inch or similar twists.
If not ...... well, I now believe we are seeing a new generation of ultra hard to tune overly-long designs in all calibres from Berger, Hornady, Nosler, and Sierra whose on-paper BC promise doesn't seem to be borne out on the ranges.
Note the use of the phrase ...... 'sleek 27 caliber elongated ogive' ....... in the blurb. 27 calibres ??!! The 90gn Berger 224s are 13 (BT) and 18.9 (VLD) and we know the the latter has long-range stability / consistency issues at 90gn 223 Rem MVs.
The 183 7mm SMK that has been around now for a couple of years also has the 27-calibre ogive, and I've found it difficult to tune vertical out of its groups at 100 in an 8-twist 284 rifle that shoots the old 175 and 180gn SMKs outstandingly well, so I have a way to go before I even try it at 800 yards and up. (Or even at 300 yards!) Wonderfully consistent dimensions and weight and I have rarely seen as small ES values as I was getting over several charge weights. But, if it doesn't shoot consistently ....... ! A 197gn big brother version therefore doesn't exactly turn me on no matter how sexy these super-long bullets look.
Some UK F/O competitors got very excited when the 195 284 Berger Hunting Hybrid appeared a year or two back, but I don't see anybody here winning matches with it recently. My impression ... correct me if you know otherwise ...... is that people tried it then went back to the 180gn Target Hybrid. In fact, nothing is new under the sun as they say. Some few years ago now Berger introduced the longest bullet / highest nose-radius / lowest form factor bullet around short of some monometal machined jobs for its time - the 175gn .284 XLD VLD with surprise, surprise a 26-calibre nose radius. Few people got it to shoot well, although if you did manage it was a fantastic performer. This is one of the forgotten designs, most who tried it more than happily forgetting the experience one suspects, likewise not a model Berger will want to be reminded of. (The tolerant 180 Hybrid has the same low form factor, but doesn't need the super-hooter profile it seems.)
Interestingly too, Paul Hill who walked away with the 2017 European F-Class Championship individual matches at Bisley in September - a fantastic F/O performance over six matches covering two days at 800, 900, and 1,000 yards with barely a dropped point - shot the 180gn Lapua Scenar from a SAUM. Its 0.319 G7 BC is simply pedestrian for a 7mm by current standards, but give it a barrel and load it likes and it'll perform as well as anything and outperform most at 1,000. (It's also a lot cheaper than Berger Hybrids in the UK - ashes in the mouths of others who're paying over £70 / 100 for the US bullets, somewhere around $100 / 100 at the current exchange rate.
So, I'll be keeping my plastic money firmly locked up until I hear that these newfangled superhooters actually work on real ranges, in all conditions, and in matches. (I go around shouting Bah Humbug! over the Christmas season too, being a grumpy old git.) However, since I'm a relatively credulous soul who has great faith in what many regulars on this forum say, I did go and invest in a 500ct box of the newish pointed 90gn 224 SMKs and will live with the 0.259 BC (Litz Ballistic Performance of Rifle Bullets 3rd edition) as long as they shoot as consistently as reported.
Incidentally, the Litz measured BC of the pointed 90 is only 0.002 better than that of the old version (0.259 v 0.257). Accepting the accuracy tolerances of the testing methodology, that means that there is either no real difference between them or if there is an improvement, it has to be small. (Dimensions are the same meplat diameters aside, so it's not a result of any redesign.) Add in Applied Ballistics LLC's results of trimming and pointing tests in Bryan's Modern Advancements in Long Range Shooting Vol II, this reinforces what some of us have wondered for a while - that whilst some bullets do seem to get a modest BC improvement, it's sometimes more about reducing BC variations between individual bullets than producing an overall increase.
I have had incredible results using the factory pointed 90gr smk even at 1000 yards. I won’t compete with it at that distance (I have a 308 for that) but I will say that the groups that I can shoot with unprocessed lapua brass and unmolested Sierra 90gr matchkings are impressive, at least to me. 0.1xx-0.2xx at 100 yards. 2 inch vertical at 600 yards and 6 inch vertical at 1000 yards is just fine for me using the lowly old 223 rem. If the 95gr shoots as well and has a better Actual BC to boot. I’m all in.
If the pointed 90 SMK does that for me, I'll be very satisfied. The 95 will be a very different animal though with a 27-calibres radius nose. That compares to 12 for the 90 SMK, a radius that falls between those of long range tangent ogive bullets like the 185gn .30 Berger Juggernaut and older VLD designs that mostly run around 14. If the new model has the 27-cal value as per the others, the word to describe the design is 'radical'. It's not an adaptation of the existing 90 in any way, shape or form. The 90 also has an Rt/R ratio of 0.8 making it closer to a true tangent design (1.0) than to fairly aggressive secant ogive VLDs which used to run at ~0.5 but whose ratios have been getting ever lower thanks to these super long-radius nose designs.
As I said, I'll await reports of people's experiences with some interest. I hope Sierra can pull it off as I've always been fond of this company's products. It is good to see them moving quickly now to become more competitive in design specifications and I certainly welcome Sierra's huge improvements in production QA with their new designs.
As I said, I'll await reports of people's experiences with some interest. I hope Sierra can pull it off as I've always been fond of this company's products. It is good to see them moving quickly now to become more competitive in design specifications and I certainly welcome Sierra's huge improvements in production QA with their new designs.
nakneker
Gold $$ Contributor
These were posted in the bulletin today.
muleman69
USMC -1st marine Div. RVN
Im with you the 200 looks great, If you get something worked up for your 300 win please let me no. Thanks
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