Action Design

[Dusty Stevens]

Going outside the box on this one, Dusty. How about a solenoid-based ignition system? The bolt body serves as shell of the solenoid, and the moveable core, has a short pin attached to fire the primer. The core sits inside the front of the body and doesn't have to be large or move very far. The remaining space would be used for the electronics, and to house a small but powerful Lithium Hydride rechargeable battery. Access to the internal parts and the battery compartment would be through the back of the bolt's body. The trigger for such a system is just a switch that when touched completes the bolt's circuit "firing" it.

2.0 Replace existing spring based system with a self-contained solenoid-based one. Current trigger's sear would act as a switch when it is pulled.

Everything would look and function the same as what we use today. A ton of details need to be addressed, but what do you think?

Chris Mitchell

Love the idea. Lets get it going.

 

[Robert]

I think I should go against some pre-conceived ideas here :

1°) On a ‘closed end ‘ action (C .G-RPA, Millenium …) there is much lenght available for the firing pin spring than on a ‘shroud’ system. For instance, the C-G-RPA has a bolt lenght of 158mm (6 .22inch), while the SA Remington 700 has a bolt body lenght of 127mm (5inches). Hpwever, the firing pin lenght of the former is about half the lenght of the shroud model.

2°) I wonder what would be the dimensions of a solenoid capable to develop on such a short travel sufficient energy to ensure correct indentation ?. Wonder also on the dimensions of the necessary energy source ?. Only plus I could see is, solenoids being return spring-loaded, the bolt lift would not have to ensure recocking .

3°) And, while we are on imagination, why not envisage compressed air motion to power a firing pin ?. The system as used on match air rifles or pistols with high-pressure air vessels works perfectly and could perhaps be adapted ?...A challenge.. With such a system, recocking would also be included in the system....
FWIW

R.G.C

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I am pretty sure solenoids have been used to operate valves in a cylinder head. I remember reading about it somewhere. Still seems to me you would need a spring in the bolt. It doesnt seem likely there would be a solenoid small enough that could generate the energy needed, but I dont know whats out there.

 

[TRA]

Compressed air opens a large can of worms. You would need to use something like nitrogen which does not compress.
Modern day direct injection diesels are in the 30,000 psi. Direct injection GM gasoline burners are ~2,800 psi

 

[Macropod]

Nitrogen doesn't compress? Well that's news to me!

 

[TRA]

Nitrogen doesn't compress? Well that's news to me!

I just assumed you knew of liquid nitrogen.

 

[dminn1]

Since there is susposedly nothing new under the sun it seems like some type of experimental ignition system would have been tried somewhere. With weight being of little concern it seems like a heavy bechrest or rail gun would be a likely place to look. Does anyone recall any experiments in this area in the benchrest world?

 

[sparker]

You do know we have to do more work to the shorter actions to get the ignition energy needed for top accuracy? I dont use the shorter actions for that reason. Standard short action length or longer, otherwise your adding weight to the firing pin. Lock time has little to do with accuracy, its a sales gimmick. Look at any of the leading edge rifles that are setting group records, especially long range. You will see a trend for more ignition energy and increased lock time VS less and shorter. I increase lock time and energy on almost every rifle I build.

I assume that you are increasing the fall to contact for the firing pin travel. This should increase the KE delivered to the primer. However, that is not the only way to do so.

 

[sparker]

BAT Neuvo.

I would love to know how the ignition system of the Neuvo is superior to others...

Seems to shoot OK.

 

[4xforfun]

Again....I didn't read all of the posts but..all of this talk about shortening the action......How are you going to load loaded rounds and eject empties? Seems to me that I need to pull the bolt almost all of the way back to eject the empties....and all of the way back to kick out unfired rounds. It has to be x inches in length to get the job done.

Otherwise......break open single shot......action is ZERO inches long....or a falling block.

Tod

 

[BoydAllen]

In the realm of short range group shooting the differences in results are more about keeping in tune, reading the flags, and the quality of bullets, brass, and barrels. All of this with conventional ignition systems. In good conditions the records continue to fall. Until I can shoot to those levels, why worry about action design when that is not what is holding me back? No ignition design can compensate for problems in any of the areas that I mentioned. As far as I am concerned the best actions are good enough, if they are working properly, understanding that they may not come that way from their manufacturers. IMO accuracy is a weakest link thing, and we are near the top of the curve, refining.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I assume that you are increasing the fall to contact for the firing pin travel. This should increase the KE delivered to the primer. However, that is not the only way to do so.

Thats what Im doing. There are other ways to increase KE but non effective as more fall. More pin fall is simply more time for the pin to accelerate. For the most part everyone is pretty familiar with accuracy issues related to light weight firing pins. Adding weight helps, but at some point you will also need more spring. The lighter high velocity pins may equal heavy slow ones on paper, but not on target. Very similar to a .223 vs .44 mag, they may have similar energy levels, but they have very different characteristics.

 

[sparker]

Thats what Im doing. There are other ways to increase KE but non effective as more fall. More pin fall is simply more time for the pin to accelerate. For the most part everyone is pretty familiar with accuracy issues related to light weight firing pins. Adding weight helps, but at some point you will also need more spring. The lighter high velocity pins may equal heavy slow ones on paper, but not on target. Very similar to a .223 vs .44 mag, they may have similar energy levels, but they have very different characteristics.

One might infer that there is a momentum component to ignition consistency.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

This is why the latest innovation in benchrest actions (nuevo) is so long. A bat B will out agg a bat S anyday which is why you dont see any. We sacrifice weight and barrel length to have a better agging ignition system. Great example- Back in the day when hall actions were the norm when i started competing, a hall M was the lv action of choice in his lineup. You couldnt hardly give the shorter hall S away, and its the same thing with a bat S. people choose the bat B and DS length actions 99 times to one over an S action. Its all about the ignition and inertia. Take a good proven action and dry fire it and you can hear the difference. Theres a lot of secrets, juju and beers go into that sound i assure you.

 

[BartsBullets]

Before anyone gets too excited this action has become unattainable!


The CST ACTION made by Mike Irwin in Bagdad, Ky. Is probably the best engineered action in the world. Mike contacted me to help with the early testing. The action proved to be phenomenal. I think Mike made 10 of the benchrest actions. I used one to win the IBS Nationals (100/200 yards) and Billy Stevens Used one to win the Super Shoot. That's not bad for only producing (I believe) 10 actions. The link
Below still has info on the action.

Bart

http://cstmtech.com/precision-actions-2/

 

[clowdis]

Before anyone gets too excited this action has become unattainable!


The CST ACTION made by Mike Irwin in Bagdad, Ky. Is probably the best engineered action in the world. Mike contacted me to help with the early testing. The action proved to be phenomenal. I think Mike made 10 of the benchrest actions. I used one to win the IBS Nationals (100/200 yards) and Billy Stevens Used one to win the Super Shoot. That's not bad for only producing (I believe) 10 actions. The link
Below still has info on the action.

Bart

http://cstmtech.com/precision-actions-2/

I handled one of these actions several years ago at Camp Perry. I thought it was a great action and couldn't wait to buy one. Unfortunately, like you said, it never happened and the actions are unobtainable. However, looking at the new Tubb action I noticed several "familiar" features. These people may be making the new action for David.

 

[Jefferson]

Before anyone gets too excited this action has become unattainable!


The CST ACTION made by Mike Irwin in Bagdad, Ky. Is probably the best engineered action in the world. Mike contacted me to help with the early testing. The action proved to be phenomenal. I think Mike made 10 of the benchrest actions. I used one to win the IBS Nationals (100/200 yards) and Billy Stevens Used one to win the Super Shoot. That's not bad for only producing (I believe) 10 actions. The link
Below still has info on the action.

Bart

http://cstmtech.com/precision-actions-2/

I remember you showing me one at the super shoot many moons ago,

Liked it but thought it would be too much of a hassle to get it approved for importation into Canada, looks like I shouda, but thought they will become available in a year and then import it

why can's someone take this design and remake it with the original owners consent or send him a fifty for each action sold

Jeff

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

This is why the latest innovation in benchrest actions (nuevo) is so long. A bat B will out agg a bat S anyday which is why you dont see any. We sacrifice weight and barrel length to have a better agging ignition system. Great example- Back in the day when hall actions were the norm when i started competing, a hall M was the lv action of choice in his lineup. You couldnt hardly give the shorter hall S away, and its the same thing with a bat S. people choose the bat B and DS length actions 99 times to one over an S action. Its all about the ignition and inertia. Take a good proven action and dry fire it and you can hear the difference. Theres a lot of secrets, juju and beers go into that sound i assure you.

Alan Hall has an interesting take on the subject of ignition. He believes in a light, fast pin strike and that depth of indentation matters little.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Alan Hall has an interesting take on the subject of ignition. He believes in a light, fast pin strike and that depth of indentation matters little.

alan is an interesting individual for sure. i can remember when him and messer got into rimfire and quit shooting centerfire

 

[jbhotrod]

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2016/01/shot-show-day-one-old-friends-new-products/

Anybody got to try the Bix n Andy action??