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Trued vs untrued action Data Only please

  • Thread starter Thread starter mram10
  • Start date Start date
I am sure that rifle accuracy is a lot like a 1911. The majority of the accuracy comes from the barrel (match grade barrel, bushing, link) and trigger job. Sure tightening the slide to frame fit helps like truing an action does but the amount is small. But when you are spending that amount of money for the other upgrades the $200-250 for turning the action is not that much and gives peace of mind that every thing is right. You can buy a Remington action for about $375 or a trued one for $600.
 
I’ll be getting a lathe soon and will be able to do my own testing. I have no dog in the fight, because I won’t be selling trued actions or action truing services. I agree that testing isn’t hard to do. I understand doing everything possible that may increase the accuracy, but that is different than saying it does increase accuracy
 
I certainly can feel the difference in how smooth my custom actions are compared to my Trued 700 actions, compared to my stock 700 actions, for what ever that is worth in accuracy.

Bob
 
urbanrifleman said:
I see response after response to this subject that basically says "getting data is impossible", and the solution is always "spend the most money".

If the world of engineering and industry had fostered this attitude, you would all still be driving Model T's. I know for a FACT you could make a meaningful study design with fixed controls and variable controls.

Of course you could do meaningful study of EVERY portion of a firearm action as simple as a Remington 700. It is an INCREDIBLY simple device. And studies as requested are done all the time in industry on much more complicated machinery. The real truth is that the community of precision shooting has nothing to gain from it, and no one would be willing to pay to prove something that no one directly gains financially from. And I would understand that.

It would take a third party (such as a magazine or something like that) to do it. And to say any test would be inconclusive has me chuckling... as I read the thread "why is there a H4895 shortage?"
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On the other thread recently on this same subject, I volunteered to do the testing, but got no takers. Some accuracy stories may indicate one thing while others indicate the exact opposite. Unless there is a meeting of the minds that a definitive answer can be found, everyone is going to keep doing what they are doing, and believing their way is right.
 
rkittine said:
I certainly can feel the difference in how smooth my custom actions are compared to my Trued 700 actions, compared to my stock 700 actions, for what ever that is worth in accuracy.

Bob
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Once you smooooothly cycle that custom action, when it is in battery, what is your advantage? I would say the closer tolerances of a custom, but are they closer than a trued Remington? Tougher materials?, Heavier (thicker, less flexible) action and bolt?, longer tenon threads?, and many other things I have read on custom action websites, that suggest their action is the way to go. From comments on this forum, you will not be winning many matches at the top levels until you make that custom commitment, and even then some mention "truing" of custom actions.
If you want to wring that last .001" out of a rifle, do anything and everything, if you want to ring steel, do some things and forget others, deer hunters? just go buy a rifle and go hunting. Rant concluded.

PS: I just got my first Borden and you are right, customs are Smooooth!
 
As I said, Smooth, but I have no clue what it means accuracy wise once in battery. I have a custom shop 40X from Dakota Arms that is no where near as smooth. My Bordens and BATs are silky. One bad thing with the real closer tolerances was that my one Borden action pretty much locked up with about 1/4 granule of H4350 that got into it. I am too new to all this to really know the difference, but I guess there is a reason that you get someone like Jim Borden to not only make the action, but also install and time as well as work the trigger. Now, as little as I do know, I will not keep a factory Remington Trigger , worked over or not.

Bob
 
mram10 said:
Not impossible at all. Shoot new, then shoot after truing. Try a handful of different loads with 5 shot groups.
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I have done this exact thing, multiple times and it was inconclusive. Just as SWD says, no two actions are the same. I have spent a lot of money and time doing {and in some cases having done} every conceivable thing I could think of to render an action more "accurate" only to have the next one from the factory out shoot it.
Also, just as SWD says, I agree that sometimes the confidence thing does more for you than all that machine work at the end of the day....my problem now is that I know all that high dollar precision machine work may or may not accomplish jack. So for me, even the "confidence" thing no longer works!!!

mram10 said:
......I agree that testing isn’t hard to do........
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Come on back after you think you are done and tell us all about it please. Don't get me wrong, I hope you accomplish something and "educate" the rest of us. You could start with this one...same rifle, scope, bench, conditions, etc. One batch of ammo chronos in excess of 50 fps difference in sd/es. The next batch of "test ammo", same "everything" chronos with less than 10 sd/es but shoots larger groups than the first one. Test that.
Will you be able to test things like primer "brisance" or are you just going to assume that all primers are created equal???? Even if you could measure it in a test...that particular primer is now gone.
 
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Testing a untrued action, then truing it is never going to give completally objective data. Simply because you must rechamber and you are then working on another part of the barrel. That changes to many things to gett an objective comparison.

Now doing it backwards may be another storey and would allow you to isolate some of the factors of trueing=accuracy.

Consider this. First true an action. See how it shoots. Then untrue it but leave the barrel and threads alone.

I am sure anyone that does this test though will retrue it afterwards ;)
 
If I were to do a test I would not test an action and then true it, I would simply have a about five of each. I know in practical terms this sounds impossible, but in industry there would be even larger groups. The larger the sample the better the results. But testing could certainly be done, and a study of the data could show trends without a doubt.
 
rkittine said:
, but also install and time as well as work the trigger.
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Would someone please tell me what the heck this is? The only timing I know of on a Remington is how you attach the bolty handle to the bolt body. What "adjustment" of "timing" is a on a Remington style action?
 
Not trying to “educate” anyone. Just want data. Your primer example would be an issue regardless of action truing. Use premium ammo like abm, hsm, or a known ammo type. Variables can always be argued. If truing is a major factor, then it will show with many ammo types. Different barrels sure do.
 
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