Trued vs untrued action Data Only please

[mram10]

I have read some threads here that are opinion based for pages with no real data as to the difference on paper between the two. Is there a study based on accuracy anywhere?

 

[swd]

IMO would be impossible to have any real data. I've seen factory actions that were awfully close and and some that were just awful and many are in between. And what to what standard of accuracy? Too many variables. What you can say is that if it has been trued up and accurized there is a certain level of confidence and expectation of how it should perform.

 

[mram10]

IMO would be impossible to have any real data. I've seen factory actions that were awfully close and and some that were just awful and many are in between. And what to what standard of accuracy? Too many variables. What you can say is that if it has been trued up and accurized there is a certain level of confidence and expectation of how it should perform.

Not impossible at all. Shoot new, then shoot after truing. Try a handful of different loads with 5 shot groups.

 

[swd]

Not impossible at all. Shoot new, then shoot after truing. Try a handful of different loads with 5 shot groups.

Yes but that will only apply to that action. The next one may or not show the same difference.

 

[dmoran]

Not impossible at all. Shoot new, then shoot after truing...

Bare in mind, the barrel will also need refitted and re-chambered after the action has been trued, that will also effect the outcome and accuracy comparison.

With that said, never seen a study/test like your asking for.
Believe there would be to many variables to over come to do such a comparison justice.
Just my 2-Cents
Donovan

 

[22DASHER]

It’s really plain and simple. If you “need” every last bit of accuracy possible or want resale value then buy a custom...Period. If not, then shoot a factory 700 and put a custom barrel on it. It will shoot better than most can shoot anyways. If you start dumping money into a 700 action you are pissing money away.

And to answer your question there is no such study.

 

[BoydAllen]

Good luck with your insistence on data. All that there is on this is anecdotal information, each individual's experiences. That is reality. Actions vary, therefore the benefits of truing actions vary. Without a lathe and some skill in using it you cannot determine how far out of line an action is. There is also the matter of your accuracy standards. This reminds me of Jack Nicholson's line from "A Few Good Men", You want the truth? ...." ;-)That is why clones have become so popular as foundations for rifle builds.

 

[mram10]

Good stuff gents. Hoping someone does a study.

 

[Cloudrepair]

Yes there are going to be a lot of variables but an action that has been trued in all ways from .005 out to .0002 is always going to do better with the same variables ( barrel, rail, stock, ammo, scope, person behind it, rests) no i havent done any tests yet but i have worked with enough machines and mechanical components to know and see how this works.
I have taken a stock savage barrel off that I could only get 1.5- 2" groups out of and put it back on after doing just the receiver face and replacing the bolt head and bolt body and now get .5 or better.
The receiver face was out of perpendicularity .003 with the bore and the bolt body had a good bow in it.
i didnt measure that but I did change the body fit from .007 slip fit to .003 the numbers work but there are still more variables.

 

[seymour fish]

Not impossible at all. Shoot new, then shoot after truing. Try a handful of different loads with 5 shot groups.

Might as well shoot a handful of different random factory loads, and an equal handful of various handloads while ur at it. Would answer all the burning questions of the day

 

[hoz53]

It’s really plain and simple. If you “need” every last bit of accuracy possible or want resale value then buy a custom...Period. If not, then shoot a factory 700 and put a custom barrel on it. It will shoot better than most can shoot anyways. If you start dumping money into a 700 action you are pissing money away.

And to answer your question there is no such study.

^^^ This is what i think also. I suppose someone could take dimensions off an action with some high dollar equipment. To get that done would probably cost more than the action. I think if you can do the work and like doing it (hobby) go ahead and true your 700, otherwise shoot it as is with a good barrel or get a custom action. Gunsmiths that have trued alot of actions know the usual range of material they need to take off to true them up but this doesnt make any difference to the end user.

 

[mram10]

Cloud, that is the kind of info I’m looking for. Thanks.

 

[Cloudrepair]

Cloud, that is the kind of info I’m looking for. Thanks.

Thanks This is on my own lathe and time so there is that.
Even for hunting I want the best I can get or do so I would go with a custom. Although i don't have one I know if I was making it the key points will be cut in the same operation to
be dead true.
Bore, abutments, thread, face.

 

[ebb]

I was of the same school of thought as Cloud and I have had Remington receivers trued, I am sure some times it does work. Then I saw the barrel thread job pictures that Alex Wheeler posted of a customers barrel. I believe if I remember correctly this barrel holds world records. The threads were so bad I couldn't imagine it shot good. It is my belief that the barrels are the highest percentage of issues with factory rifles. Most have a barrel fitted and trued at the same time, so you don't know much, you changed too many variables at the same time. So true a gun and use the same barrel. If you single point the threads how do you use the same barrel? Figure out in your mind if it is worth doing and never look back, you are never going to have positive proof. Cloud when he change bolt bodies may have gotten one that wasn't causing ignition problems and didn't realize it.

 

[johnfred1965]

If you start dumping money into a 700 action you are pissing money away.

unless it is all you have and you plan to shoot it rather than sell it.

 

[IdahoCTD]

About the only way you could do a test like this would be to true an action and chamber a barrel for it. Then shoot it and get a base line. Then recut the threads smaller to fit a standard action and test the same barrel/chamber on a untouched action (or several different actions would be best because not all factory Remington's are created equal). The new Remington actions usually clean up with under .0015" cut on the face and many are .001" or less to actually get them square (it may not remove all the machining marks at that though). The lug abutments aren't always that good but many aren't out that bad either. I have had some older Remington's out .005" on the face of the receiver.

I generally cut the face, lug abutments, and lap the lugs as a minimum on my own guns. Most of the time I cut the bolt face and skim the back of the lugs too but just for piece of mind. I don't like recutting threads because that barrel won't fit another action If I ever want to swap it without some kind of standard. If I was going to start recutting threads on a consistent basis I would get a go and no go thread gauge made and cut them all the same at around 1.085". Why people recut threads to just clean them up instead of a standard dimension is silly to me. Then that barrel only ever fits that action. Nothing ever seems to be standardized or simplified like that in the gun industry because everyone wants to be different or have there own version of everything. Maybe if someone made recoil lugs only that size and stocked go and no go gauges things would change. Hmmmmm

 

[shortgrass]

I believe if I remember correctly this barrel holds world records. The threads were so bad I couldn't imagine it shot good.

I will say it is 'funny' (but really is NOT!) that all seem to have forgotten that a human being that fired that rifle holds the record, not the barrel and not the rifle. Much seems to be talked about concerning the equipment but improving the skills and abilities of the human being who fires the rifle are so much ignored! That human has more flaws in it than can be counted and those flaws change from second to second. There are no "certain places" to go to fix those flaws like there is when fixing a piece of machinery.

 

[Cloudrepair]

I was of the same school of thought as Cloud and I have had Remington receivers trued, I am sure some times it does work. Then I saw the barrel thread job pictures that Alex Wheeler posted of a customers barrel. I believe if I remember correctly this barrel holds world records. The threads were so bad I couldn't imagine it shot good. It is my belief that the barrels are the highest percentage of issues with factory rifles. Most have a barrel fitted and trued at the same time, so you don't know much, you changed too many variables at the same time. So true a gun and use the same barrel. If you single point the threads how do you use the same barrel? Figure out in your mind if it is worth doing and never look back, you are never going to have positive proof. Cloud when he change bolt bodies may have gotten one that wasn't causing ignition problems and didn't realize it.

That is very interesting with the barrel threads as bad as they were but it was probably in a custom action. Threads can be pretty sloppy and still do there job. On the bolt bodies I have looked at five or more savages and they all had that bow, probably the heat treating.
They all have new bolt bodies now.
Can you have an ignition problem and not know it unlike fail to fire. I guess the firing pin could be causing a bullet to yaw? as it enters rifling.... but the chamber would have to allow it to

 

[ebb]

You are absolutely right Short Grass. But he didn't set the record with a small shank Savage or a Remington sps right off of the Wal Mart shelf. the first time I fired a rifle at over 300yds, I shot a 7.62 Lazaroni at 1150 yds and fired 6 shots hitting the gong 5 times. The owner of the gun had a smith barrel the action, the owner bedded it, installed and adjusted the trigger, developed the load, made the ammo, sighted the rifle, worked out the drop chart, fired a few shots and got on the target, handed the gun to me. With out him the is no way in this world I could have hit the target. He taught me enough I can do it myself now. What I am trying to say is it takes both. A lot of guys can shoot and a lot of guys can set up a rifle, less can build a rifle. But to set a national or world record you need to be able to do all of that stuff and have the money to pay for it all and the time to travel and practice and mental toughness off the chart. I know these things cause my wife is a 4 time national champion archer.

 

[urbanrifleman]

I see response after response to this subject that basically says "getting data is impossible", and the solution is always "spend the most money".

If the world of engineering and industry had fostered this attitude, you would all still be driving Model T's. I know for a FACT you could make a meaningful study design with fixed controls and variable controls.

Of course you could do meaningful study of EVERY portion of a firearm action as simple as a Remington 700. It is an INCREDIBLY simple device. And studies as requested are done all the time in industry on much more complicated machinery. The real truth is that the community of precision shooting has nothing to gain from it, and no one would be willing to pay to prove something that no one directly gains financially from. And I would understand that.

It would take a third party (such as a magazine or something like that) to do it. And to say any test would be inconclusive has me chuckling... as I read the thread "why is there a H4895 shortage?"