6 Dasher, Alpha Brass

[Alex Wheeler]

You are exactly right Jim! Accuracy + wind reading will trump all. There is only 1 fly in that ointment. I know of nobody on this planet, shooting F-Open, over the course of 30 minutes in a single match, in "troubling" conditions, who can actually "read the wind". The fact that we try and use larger calibers is an admission that nobody can accurately read tricky wind. If there was a way to do it, everyone would be shooting Dashers at a Long-Range F-Open Championship. However, I have never seen a small caliber win at the Berger S.W. Nationals at 1000 yards! It is simply too difficult.

Both sports are doing what works for them to cheat the wind. I have never met a human who's brain can process 1000 yards worth of wind data. In Br we cheat it by trying to shoot fast and get our shots down in a condition. In F-open we cheat it with higher b.c. bullets. Both sports doing what works best with their set of rules to beat the wind.

 

[ShootDots]

Both sports are doing what works for them to cheat the wind. I have never met a human who's brain can process 1000 yards worth of wind data. In Br we cheat it by trying to shoot fast and get our shots down in a condition. In F-open we cheat it with higher b.c. bullets. Both sports doing what works best with their set of rules to beat the wind.

Exactly! Well said, well said indeed!

 

[jpretle]

In regards to Alpha Brass, I've been running Alpha 308 brass and have found it to be every bit as good as Lapua and possibly better. I have necked some down to 243 and fireformed to AI. Still testing the limits, but so far, expect it to perform.
Consistency, in terms of weight and measurements has been equal to and better in some cases, than Lapua.
For example, 2 different lots of 308 brass, months apart in production----.25g
in average case wt difference.
W/in lots, hi and low case wt difference was 1.2g and 1.4g.
Longevity of primer pockets remains to be seen but so far has exceeded expectations.
One thing of note, the case rims are consistently thicker, which means there is more brass in the case head, hopefully leading to longevity of the primer pocket.
I am sold if they can maintain the consistency.
My wts and measurements were 20 rds from each lot of brass.

 

[Raythemanroe]

Both sports are doing what works for them to cheat the wind. I have never met a human who's brain can process 1000 yards worth of wind data. In Br we cheat it by trying to shoot fast and get our shots down in a condition. In F-open we cheat it with higher b.c. bullets. Both sports doing what works best with their set of rules to beat the wind.

I agree with this and it's obviously easier to shoot a Dasher/BRA faster than a WSM in LG 1k BR matches.. I have used a WSM in LG for a couple seasons and they can and do group well.. Dasher /BRA may even run off a smaller group in the wind if you can get them off before conditions get you.. Yet if conditions are tricky you will rarely see a Dasher beat a WSM for score.. WSM will usually prevail (assuming both are working well) when conditions get bad.. I Don't think you can read the wind like James Ohara is suggesting, maybe in light changes.. I watch many shooters try to wait or hold and it really burns them.. Guns that track well and run before conditions change are gonna win...

Ray

 

[Alex Wheeler]

It depends on the range. If the range has a predominant condition you can get a good handle on it, but those ranges that have geography and multiple conditions are tough.

 

[Joe Salt]

I've even seen so called wind readers a Williamsport scratch there heads when they get there targets back!

Joe Salt

 

[johara1]

You are exactly right Jim! Accuracy + wind reading will trump all. There is only 1 fly in that ointment. I know of nobody on this planet, shooting F-Open, over the course of 30 minutes in a single match, in "troubling" conditions, who can actually "read the wind". The fact that we try and use larger calibers is an admission that nobody can accurately read tricky wind. If there was a way to do it, everyone would be shooting Dashers at a Long-Range F-Open Championship. However, I have never seen a small caliber win at the Berger S.W. Nationals at 1000 yards! It is simply too difficult.

how can the 308 do so well in FTR compared to Open scores? I do know the Dasher will shoot inside the 308....... Jim

 

[ShootDots]

how can the 308 do so well in FTR compared to Open scores? I do know the Dasher will shoot inside the 308....... Jim

Jim, are you certain the 6 Dasher will shoot inside the .308? The huge majority of F-T/R shooters, who shoot 1000 yards, are using the Berger 200-20X bullet. They are running the bullet +/- 2700 f.p.s. The wind drift of those bullets at 1000 yards (from a 300 yard sight-in) is 6.5 M.O.A. of wind drift.
The 6mm Dasher shooters I know generally shoot about 2975f.p.s. with some VLD Berger or someone else's bullet. The B.C. of those bullets are .495.. Even though they are nearly 300 f.p.s., faster, they drift 7.9 M.O.A. at 1000..
If the M.O.A. at 1000 yards is just about 1 inch, then the .308 will shoot 1.4 M.O.A. (or right at 14 inches) inside a 6mm Dasher! That is quite a bit of difference betwixt the 2!
Look at it this way Jim: If the .308 200-20X lands right on the 3 o'clock side of the 10 ring, and the point of hold was the same, the Dasher is going to be right on the 9 ring. ANY miss-hold from a SLIGHTLY errant wind call would put the Dasher in the 8 ring.

 

[jsthntn247]

Are you certain the 6 Dasher will shoot inside the .308? The huge majority of F-T/R shooters, who shoot 1000 yards are using the Berger 200-20X bullet. They are running the bullet +/- 2700 f.p.s. The wind drift of those bullets at 1000 yards (from a 300 yard sight-in) is 6.5 M.O.A. of wind drift.
The 6mm Dasher shooters I know generally shoot about 2975f.p.s. with some VLD Berger or someone else's bullet. The B.C. of those bullets are .495.. Even though they are nearly 300 f.p.s., faster, they drift 7.9 M.O.A. at 1000..
If the M.O.A. at 1000 yards is just about 1 inch, then the .308 will shoot 1.4 M.O.A. (or right at 14 inches) inside a 6mm Dasher! That is quite a bit of difference betwixt the 2!
Look at it this way Jim: If the .308 200-20X lands right on the 3 o'clock side of the 10 ring, and the point of hold was the same, the Dasher is going to be right on the 9 ring. ANY miss-hold from a SLIGHTLY errant wind call would put the Dasher in the 8 ring.

Your BC is off. It is 3.5" advantage to the 308 if a full 10mph wind call is missed. About .3" per mph of wind. Then there's that recoil thing.

 

[ShootDots]

Your BC is off. It is 3.5" advantage to the 308 if a full 10mph wind call is missed. About .3" per mph of wind. Then there's that recoil thing.

I was using the Hornady Advanced Ballistic Calculator... It seems to work for me just fine..

 

[spclark]

I have never met a human who's brain can process 1000 yards worth of wind data.

You need to look up a fellow name of Kent Reeve, down in N. Carolina.

Or John Whidden, down in Georgia.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Alex,
I read Scientific American as a general interest magazine and I've seen stated many times that fluid dynamics computations are some of the most complex in physics and take specialized supercomputers to do simulations. The weather forecast is the one product they produce that we all use. Those are educated guesses.

IMO there are some people that have visual cognitive abilities that allows them the to "see more" and recognize wind patterns faster and better than the average bear. James Gardner refers to it as Spatial Intelligence. For that to work it has to be coupled with extensive observations/knowledge of the range you're shooting. Having those cognitive abilities and lacking the range knowledge will still leave one short.

It has been my experience that when you ask one of those gifted individuals with knowledge of the range why they made a specific call, they often can't tell you why they did it, they say "It just seemed like a the right guess". Often times they do process it intuitively not explicitly. Even those gifted individuals are intuiting/guessing.

So the short answer to the wind reading questions is: Everyone's guessing. It is just that some, because of they spatial intelligence and knowledge of the range, can consistently guess better at that range. At a different range.....

Kindest regards,

Joe

Thats true. Its impossible to explain how to read wind, you just have to do it to build up your level of gut feeling on how much to hold. The ones that are really impressive to me are the guys who can make solid cold bore calls.

 

[johara1]

Jim, are you certain the 6 Dasher will shoot inside the .308? The huge majority of F-T/R shooters, who shoot 1000 yards, are using the Berger 200-20X bullet. They are running the bullet +/- 2700 f.p.s. The wind drift of those bullets at 1000 yards (from a 300 yard sight-in) is 6.5 M.O.A. of wind drift.
The 6mm Dasher shooters I know generally shoot about 2975f.p.s. with some VLD Berger or someone else's bullet. The B.C. of those bullets are .495.. Even though they are nearly 300 f.p.s., faster, they drift 7.9 M.O.A. at 1000..
If the M.O.A. at 1000 yards is just about 1 inch, then the .308 will shoot 1.4 M.O.A. (or right at 14 inches) inside a 6mm Dasher! That is quite a bit of difference betwixt the 2!
Look at it this way Jim: If the .308 200-20X lands right on the 3 o'clock side of the 10 ring, and the point of hold was the same, the Dasher is going to be right on the 9 ring. ANY miss-hold from a SLIGHTLY errant wind call would put the Dasher in the 8 ring.

Where did you come up with the BC for the Dasher 6mm bullets? and the Hybrid is .550, if were going for all out speed and 1/4 accuracy the Dasher will go over 3100 with Varget and 28" barrel....... I been down this road before, been on the relay with 300's and 338's and in terrible wind and the Dasher target was hanging up and the big guns were in the box. If you miss a wind call it isn't the guns fault or the caliber...... Jim

 

[ShootDots]

Where did you come up with the BC for the Dasher 6mm bullets? and the Hybrid is .550, if were going for all out speed and 1/4 accuracy the Dasher will go over 3100 with Varget and 28" barrel....... I been down this road before, been on the relay with 300's and 338's and in terrible wind and the Dasher target was hanging up and the big guns were in the box. If you miss a wind call it isn't the guns fault or the caliber...... Jim

Well I am very glad that you can read the wind, especially when it's "terrible"... I know, when the wind is terrible, I have a difficult time making accurate wind calls. When you find the .550 Hybrid let us know and keep running the Hybrid over 3100 f.p.s. in the Dasher, Lapua will thank you for it..

 

[johara1]

Well I am very glad that you can read the wind, especially when it's "terrible"... I know, when the wind is terrible, I have a difficult time making accurate wind calls. When you find the .550 Hybrid let us know and keep running the Hybrid over 3100 f.p.s. in the Dasher, Lapua will thank you for it..

The old ones were, they were long 1.270 plus timing and pointing, on the lot I shot the record with. Remember I gave away case that were fired a 100 times, So don't get it in you head that it can't be done. and I'm sure if I ran a long get barrel it would be easier to get the velocity. You make your comparison staked in your favor.

Jim,
With all due respect I must disagree with your statement.

I know of many guys that own both a Dasher and one of the 7mm variants. When asked why the have the 7mm the answer is something like: "The Dasher is a great caliber with extreme accuracy, but at 1K yards, when the wind crashes the party its time for the 7mm." In strong winds that happens even at 600 yards. Those are NRA record holders, not duffers like me.

Now, I'm sure that there are exceptions to that rule (see my previous posting #52),and you may well be that exception, but as the old saying goes "The race is not always won by the swift or the battle by the strong, but thats the way the smart money goes".

Kindest regards,

Joe

P.S. Are we off topic yet?

Here we go changing the caliber now ...... and yes we are off the topic....... Jim

 

[Raythemanroe]

Where did you come up with the BC for the Dasher 6mm bullets? and the Hybrid is .550, if were going for all out speed and 1/4 accuracy the Dasher will go over 3100 with Varget and 28" barrel....... I been down this road before, been on the relay with 300's and 338's and in terrible wind and the Dasher target was hanging up and the big guns were in the box. If you miss a wind call it isn't the guns fault or the caliber...... Jim

My guess is the Dasher ran off before conditions change and the big guns got caught.. That is an advantage of a Dasher, but if it gets caught in changes the WSM usually wins..

Ray

 

[ASbobcat]

In regards to Alpha Brass, I've been running Alpha 308 brass and have found it to be every bit as good as Lapua and possibly better. I have necked some down to 243 and fireformed to AI. Still testing the limits, but so far, expect it to perform.
Consistency, in terms of weight and measurements has been equal to and better in some cases, than Lapua.
For example, 2 different lots of 308 brass, months apart in production----.25g
in average case wt difference.
W/in lots, hi and low case wt difference was 1.2g and 1.4g.
Longevity of primer pockets remains to be seen but so far has exceeded expectations.
One thing of note, the case rims are consistently thicker, which means there is more brass in the case head, hopefully leading to longevity of the primer pocket.
I am sold if they can maintain the consistency.
My wts and measurements were 20 rds from each lot of brass.

Very good post. Would be most interested in primer pocket life as you run more cycles, especially if accompanied by performance data (how hot are you loading?).

 

[johara1]

Very good post. Would be most interested in primer pocket life as you run more cycles, especially if accompanied by performance data (how hot are you loading?).

With the Dasher I was getting a 100 +......... Jim

 

[johara1]

I ran the Spencers at 2920 to 3030 depending on the barrel and with the old Hybrid trimmed and pointed I ran those at 3030 - 3060, in a 28" barrels...... Jim

 

[Stan Taylor]

Where did you come up with the BC for the Dasher 6mm bullets? and the Hybrid is .550, if were going for all out speed and 1/4 accuracy the Dasher will go over 3100 with Varget and 28" barrel....... I been down this road before, been on the relay with 300's and 338's and in terrible wind and the Dasher target was hanging up and the big guns were in the box. If you miss a wind call it isn't the guns fault or the caliber...... Jim

Jim where was that at Williams port