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6br Confusion...Have a look

I built me a 6br a while back and have slowly been trying to get it tuned. It's a Remington action, with a 26" Kreiger heavy varmint barrel, a custom built maple/walnut BR stock, and a 10-50 x 60 sightron. I chambered it with a Manson Reamer with .271-.272 tapered neck and .105 freebore. After many times of being disappointed at he local 100/200 yd range I bought the stock and inletted it and bedded it myself and got me a Sinclair rest. Results were immediately better and last week started ramping up the powder to get more velocity and hopefully better grouping. I was able to shoot a 5 shot group at 200yds that a dime would cover.

Load
Varget 30.3gr
105 Berger VLD
CCI 450
Avg velocity 2860ish

Today I went back with same powder in 4 5 round sets each 1 thou further off the lands. Man am I blown away. Group 1 is a sighted group and was old powder and seating depth was probably .015 off lands and head space was probably around 5 thou due to malfunction in my set up.

Groups 2 and 3 were fired immediately after and then I moved crosshairs to get groups above bullseye and more centered, group 4 and 5 followed immediately after that.

Have a look and offer any feedback as to what you think is going on...group 4 is really confusing.

All are 200 yds little if any wind and velocity taken with magnetospeed v3
Bullseye is 5/8" circle
Thanks in advance.
 

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Jason, did you shoot the groups with the Magnetospeed on the barrel? That is what it looks like. If so, try it again without the Magnetospeed on the barrel.

I have seen the MS take a big grouping load and make it smaller. I have seen it take a small grouping load and make it bigger. I have seen it make very little difference at all. It has always moved my point of impact.
 
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Russell I did in fact shoot all groups with it on...I assumed it would change POI but didn't think it would change grouping. Makes sense except for group 4.
 
I would shoot the exact sequence again, no MS. You now know your numbers.

I have a completely unproven theory, really more of a hunch at this point, that when the MS makes very little or no difference in my group size, that my load may be really in tune.

I have seen it take a small grouping load and make it into group 4 numerous times.
 
Thanks for that thought...will definitely try that and see what I get. Been chasing velocity the last few times out so MS has lived on the end of the barrel.
 
When I did load work with the MS, once I had an idea of where I was velocity wise, I would then take it off and shoot for groups until I found what I wanted. Then I would go back and test for velocity and es. This usually meant loading extra rounds for a trip to the range, but it worked for me.

A ladder test at longer distance might show you something, too.
 
Jason, Your load is exactly what I shoot in my 8 twist 6BR's. Do as Dos XX says and get the MS off the barrel. It has been my experience that the Berger 105 VLD's like a .010-.015 jam into the lands. You might want to drop the powder charge to 30.0 when jamming and work up from there. I would also check the scope mounts and action screws for proper torque settings. Good luck.
 
Good advice from all the above.
I will add my 28" Criterion 6br N seems to like my 105Berger MT VLDs loaded .005 off.
I seem to get my best groups there and with 30.2gr of Varget, CCI450s, with Lapua brass averaging 2880 at around 70*

Are you basing your off and into lands with the Hornady Stoney Point gauge? If by odd chance you are do it the old fashioned way and pull the extractor and use bolt lift/fall as guide. I was using the gauge at first and was actually off .004 on what actual was. The latter method is far more exacting.
 
Navigators say that it's harder to get where you want to go if you don't know where you are when you start. Same for load work up.

You say, ".............each 1 thou further off the lands. Man am I blown away. Group 1 is a sighted group and was old powder and seating depth was probably .015 off lands and head space was probably around 5 thou due to malfunction in my set up." I find these statements concerning. Here's why.

You're pretty close to what other folks, including me, use for 6mm BR loads, but you're far from finding Nirvana for your particular equipment.

Remember, you're trying to shoot very small groups by making appropriate changes in parameters, some of which will be different when you compare you're equipment with mine. And, since we do our testing by measuring bullet holes in a target by shooting a gun held by a human as the bullet travels through an unknown atmosphere, there is a large quantity of "noise" associated with data collection. Our job is to detect what we hope is meaningful data and filter it out of the "noise". With that in mind, you MUST control as many variables as possible as you test ONE parameter at a time.

Take seating depth, for example. Some folks experiment with seating depth first and some do charge weight testing first. Suit yourself, but I establish a reasonable starting seating depth first based purely on experience and try to discover a promising charge weight by measuring mean radius of my group sizes while also putting significant emphasis on muzzle velocity SD.

Then I load five or six 5-shot groups at that charge weight and test various seating depths, again searching for the best mean radius. Next I select the best seating depth and do fine tuning of the charge weight in small increments as I search for the lowest SD and smallest mean radius.

Other's use ladder testing or other methods. Suit yourself when it comes to testing procedure, but do it in a scientific way.

Mean radius is more meaningful than group size because group size only considers the two worst shots in the group. Few people calculate mean radius because it's so tedious, but I scan my targets and use On Target software to measure and catalog the groups. It automatically calculates mean radius and other important measurements. It's cheap and easy to use. Plus it will output your data to a spread sheet where you can study it in a meaningful way. I recommend it. What I don't recommend is trying to measure performance where a few thou one way or another makes the difference between good and not-so-good by using a coin or a carpenters tape.

Back to seating depth. Berger published a good article on seating for their VLD bullets. Read it here:
http://www.bergerbullets.com/getting-the-best-precision-and-accuracy-from-vld-bullets-in-your-rifle/

Some people find good results jamming the VLD's and some jump them a great deal further than I would imagine before I read the article. Certainly changing your seating depth by .001" during a preliminary work up session is a waste of time. You are WAY too early in your load work up process to be fine tuning seating depth in increments of .001". Your seating tests with VLD's should start out, at a minimum, with five 5-shot groups each separated by .015" or .010" at least. Zero in with finer testing later on. As others have suggested, you need to measure your seating depth and cartridge length by measuring CBTO, Cartridge Base To Ogive. Over All Length, OAL, is a poor second choice since high BC bullets vary quite a bit in length. Hornady sells an inexpensive kit which attaches to your calipers.

The most concerning part of your post is your reference to "old powder", implying that the other groups are using a different powder. That kind of testing is a fools errand. If you're testing charge weights, measure your powder very carefully and change nothing other than the charge weight. You gotta' use the same batch of brass (all carefully prepared in the same way), identical bullets, identical seating depths, same powder lot, and you have to make this test ammo all at the same time using the exact same loading procedure.

Otherwise, you're just wearing out your barrel because this kind of testing won't give you real data. You'll be left scratching your head. You might as well just toss in 30.2 grains of Varget, seat your VLD's with a .015" jump and with .0015 neck tension, and call it done.

Bottom line: There are lots of ways to skin this particular cat and I'm not saying you should use my testing procedure. But I will say that taking a precise scientific approach to testing, whatever your exact procedure might be, will yield better results in a much shorter period of time.
 
I get exactly the same results when shooting my 6BR, same load except hybrids instead of VLD's and using my Magnetospeed. I have noticed that the Magnetospeed is gradually moving back as firing continues, acting like a tuner on some groups, but a de-tuner on others as it moves. So I have purposely moved it forward again after a few groups and witnessed the same results.

I now develop the load without the MS attached, then use it to confirm the velocity and ES/SD after the load is shooting well.

FWIW: 28 inch X-caliber, 8 twist, Savage Action with Vortex HS 6-24X50, Bobby Hart stock shooting off bi-pod and rear bag, 200-300 yds. Wish I could get more A-Max's, they shoot A-Mazing.
 
Navigators say that it's harder to get where you want to go if you don't know where you are when you start. Same for load work up.

You say, ".............each 1 thou further off the lands. Man am I blown away. Group 1 is a sighted group and was old powder and seating depth was probably .015 off lands and head space was probably around 5 thou due to malfunction in my set up." I find these statements concerning. Here's why.

You're pretty close to what other folks, including me, use for 6mm BR loads, but you're far from finding Nirvana for your particular equipment.

Remember, you're trying to shoot very small groups by making appropriate changes in parameters, some of which will be different when you compare you're equipment with mine. And, since we do our testing by measuring bullet holes in a target by shooting a gun held by a human as the bullet travels through an unknown atmosphere, there is a large quantity of "noise" associated with data collection. Our job is to detect what we hope is meaningful data and filter it out of the "noise". With that in mind, you MUST control as many variables as possible as you test ONE parameter at a time.

Take seating depth, for example. Some folks experiment with seating depth first and some do charge weight testing first. Suit yourself, but I establish a reasonable starting seating depth first based purely on experience and try to discover a promising charge weight by measuring mean radius of my group sizes while also putting significant emphasis on muzzle velocity SD.

Then I load five or six 5-shot groups at that charge weight and test various seating depths, again searching for the best mean radius. Next I select the best seating depth and do fine tuning of the charge weight in small increments as I search for the lowest SD and smallest mean radius.

Other's use ladder testing or other methods. Suit yourself when it comes to testing procedure, but do it in a scientific way.

Mean radius is more meaningful than group size because group size only considers the two worst shots in the group. Few people calculate mean radius because it's so tedious, but I scan my targets and use On Target software to measure and catalog the groups. It automatically calculates mean radius and other important measurements. It's cheap and easy to use. Plus it will output your data to a spread sheet where you can study it in a meaningful way. I recommend it. What I don't recommend is trying to measure performance where a few thou one way or another makes the difference between good and not-so-good by using a coin or a carpenters tape.

Back to seating depth. Berger published a good article on seating for their VLD bullets. Read it here:
http://www.bergerbullets.com/getting-the-best-precision-and-accuracy-from-vld-bullets-in-your-rifle/

Some people find good results jamming the VLD's and some jump them a great deal further than I would imagine before I read the article. Certainly changing your seating depth by .001" during a preliminary work up session is a waste of time. You are WAY too early in your load work up process to be fine tuning seating depth in increments of .001". Your seating tests with VLD's should start out, at a minimum, with five 5-shot groups each separated by .015" or .010" at least. Zero in with finer testing later on. As others have suggested, you need to measure your seating depth and cartridge length by measuring CBTO, Cartridge Base To Ogive. Over All Length, OAL, is a poor second choice since high BC bullets vary quite a bit in length. Hornady sells an inexpensive kit which attaches to your calipers.

The most concerning part of your post is your reference to "old powder", implying that the other groups are using a different powder. That kind of testing is a fools errand. If you're testing charge weights, measure your powder very carefully and change nothing other than the charge weight. You gotta' use the same batch of brass (all carefully prepared in the same way), identical bullets, identical seating depths, same powder lot, and you have to make this test ammo all at the same time using the exact same loading procedure.

Otherwise, you're just wearing out your barrel because this kind of testing won't give you real data. You'll be left scratching your head. You might as well just toss in 30.2 grains of Varget, seat your VLD's with a .015" jump and with .0015 neck tension, and call it done.

Bottom line: There are lots of ways to skin this particular cat and I'm not saying you should use my testing procedure. But I will say that taking a precise scientific approach to testing, whatever your exact procedure might be, will yield better results in a much shorter period of time.

Let me clarify.....

This wasn't my first trip to the range...around 250 shots in currently. Last range session testing all same seating depth that was determined to be best for my gun In an earlier session and .1g different powder charges. I got all decent groups with 30.3 being the best so I decided to try to fine tune that with seating depth.



All my loads are weighed on Scott Parker tuned scales and seated with wilson inline seater on a KM arbor press and any bullet +\- 5lbs seating force gets seperated.

The "old powder" was some varget I left in hopper and I use it for sighters and fouling shots.

The 1st group was nothing more than to foul barrel and get barrel to temp....and to fire form the cases back to proper head spacing. They were bumped back to far early on and just wanted to get them fire formed and back in rotation



All OAL length is done with SP OAL length gauge and Stoney point ogive adapter on Mitutoyo calipers.

All brass is same box
And all is prepared the exact same way and each case is measured for proper headspace after going through a whidden Gunworks Bushing die.

Did I miss anything?
 
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I'm not familiar with a tapered neck. What is the premise of this? Seems problematic to me.
 
I'm not familiar with a tapered neck. What is the premise of this? Seems problematic to me.

Not real sure it was just the off the shelf reamer he sells for 6BR. I just ordered what was in stock because I was excited to build and didn't want to wait 2 months for a reamer. I'll attach the print.

I'm fairly new to 6BR and coming from shooting PPCs at 100/200 makes it much worse for me lol.
 

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Bumped all the shoulders back this morning and reloaded and noticed that 2 of 5 cases that were shot in group 4 got somewhat stuck in the wilson seater die(couldn't pull out with fingernails like normal) so I marked those case and they will be sighters/foulers in next test. Also caught a 108 bullet in my box this morning....after it was seated in that same line of cases...so many gremlins so little time
 

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