Brass ageing ?????

[kvd]

Can brass become brittle w/age????
Does anyone have any contact information for a Lapua Rep.??

I have some 222 Gold box Lapua, that was new
when I started loading them, using Redding Comp Dies.
I dont know how old it was when I bought it. Blue box had
been out at least 5 yrs.
They have been loaded only 5 times, the last 3 times I annealed
the necks on the AMP. at a setting off 55 (no on chart)

When sizing, you would swear the cases were made of steel, not brass.
It took effort to cycle the RC. The cases had grown in length quickly.
Cases were cut to trim length and reloaded.
When processing them the last time, I discovered 2 cases that had
what appeared to be scratches around the middle of the case.
Yesterday when I fired those 2 cases, they separated in the chamber.
Thats when I quit and went home to pull some bullets

When I attempted to pull the bullets w/an inertia hammer, they acted as if
they were glued in the case, but only had .003 NK tension. During the
pulling process, another case separated into 2 parts leaving the bullet in the neck,
while breaking my inertia hammer at the same time.

In 50 yrs of reloading, I have never had an experience like this.

Anyone have any ideas as to what caused this???? LDS

Brass does not harden or embrittle with time.
It would seem from your OP that the brass was overly worked during the reloading process - the difficult press effort you mentioned. The quick case growth may have been the result of stretching the case and thinning the brass in the middle of the case where it subsequently failed upon firing.
In all likelihood, your remaining brass not subjected to the harsh press action is fine. Review the reloading process again to verify such things as adequate case lubrication, the right dies for the cartridge, some sort of obstruction in the die used, etc...anything that may have cause excessive cold working of the brass.
It may be in your best interest to discard this batch of brass if you can find no clear reason for the case separation. Cases coming apart in the chamber is no small thing, as you know.

Ken

 

[dkhunt14]

What kind of powder do you shoot all my brass is hot when I shoot it And it gets harder .
lol. Larry

It gets harder from sizing or shooting. When you fire it, it expands and contracts, that is working it and makes it harder. It doesn't get hot enough on firing to annual it or the case heads would get to soft. Matt

 

[Mozella]

Brass is made from coppers for zinc
The mixture of each is determines the quality
That is why some brass holds up better then other . Larry

Thanks, but what I meant when I asked you to point to me toward any scientific evidence that cartridge brass age hardens, as you claim, was to ask if you have a link to some published data.

I already know what brass is. What I'm asking for is some evidence, other than opinions in this thread, that cartridge brass age hardens. My formal education, some of which involved classes in metallurgy, taught me that it doesn't. Do you have evidence to the contrary?

 

[dkhunt14]

It seems as though some are reading this as old/stored ammo. Quiet the contrary. Its loaded and shot in the same day. All I am trying to determine is what happened to the brass to cause it to become in this hard brittle condition. Is it or was it something in the composition of the brass that caused this, as in a defective lot????
As far as tumbling causing the problem, I cant see that. If this was the case, I would have had this issue many yrs ago. I ways include tumbling in every cycle of reloading.
In regards to insufficient annealing heat, all I can say is I used the chart number. BTW the mfg of the AMP recommends annealing every reloading cycle. If anything judging by the color it could have been over heated. I thought someone may have had a similar experience, or know if empty brass has a shelf life??? LDS

I believe your condition was caused by excessive sizing and the cases stretched. Maybe on Initial firing they were too short for your chamber and they stretched too much. We're your necks cleaned all the way to bare brass? I dont believe it had anything to do with age of brass Or the .003 tension. I use old brass and sometimes use .003 tension or more and never ran into that.

Maybe annealed too much and it went down the case too far. You can send an annealed case to AMP and they will test for hardness. Maybe it was a bad lot of brass, but I believe others would have replied on that. Matt

 

[dkhunt14]

In summation, if someone is having issues with loads that are 4-5 years old, it's not the powder or components. A lot can go wrong with brass that's been reloaded 5-6 times and annealed 4-5 times. Brass doesn't need to be annealed every time you reload, in fact, annealing time and again is asking for trouble.

I match shoot shoot and anneal my brass every firing. It will not hurt the brass. I have some that has been annealed 20 times or more. I have never had a problem. I also know guys that have done the same and have up to 50 firings on their brass. Matt

 

[dkhunt14]

Can brass become brittle w/age????
Does anyone have any contact information for a Lapua Rep.??

They have been loaded only 5 times, the last 3 times I annealed
the necks on the AMP. at a setting off 55 (no on chart)

When sizing, you would swear the cases were made of steel, not brass.
It took effort to cycle the RC. The cases had grown in length quickly. LDS

Kevin Thomas on here is Lapua Rep.

Seeing they sized hard and grew in length. I would guess the chamber is excessively big or your die is too small, thus overworking the brass. Stretching it to much and making it hard. A 222 Case in a Rockchucker with proper lube, should not size that hard. Matt

 

[JRS]

Your empty brass does not have a shelf life. The early 222 Remington LAPUA brass was subcontracted, and not made by LAPUA. When LAPUA realized the subcontracted brass was not up to their standards, they discontinued it, then started to manufacture it themselves. If the setting on the AMP is set-up for for current LAPUA brass, it might not be correct for the earlier made brass. The problem with the brass was addressed by Adam Braverman a number of years ago.

 

[savagedasher]

Thanks, but what I meant when I asked you to point to me toward any scientific evidence that cartridge brass age hardens, as you claim, was to ask if you have a link to some published data.

I already know what brass is. What I'm asking for is some evidence, other than opinions in this thread, that cartridge brass age hardens. My formal education, some of which involved classes in metallurgy, taught me that it doesn't. Do you have evidence to the contrary?

Then you must feel that our weather problem is man made . So wre are
Cool No more discussion needed
Larry

 

[LarryDScott]

I have found a PH No. and email address for Kevin Thomas.
I hope he can shed some light on this issue. I intend to contact
the owner of AMP for another opinion. This is a case of the AMP being new, one would have to ASSUME the supplied settings are also current, but who knows ???? LDS

 

[JRS]

I have found a PH No. and email address for Kevin Thomas.
I hope he can shed some light on this issue. I intend to contact
the owner of AMP for another opinion. This is a case of the AMP being new, one would have to ASSUME the supplied settings are also current, but who knows ???? LDS

The setting for current 222 LAPUA brass might be too hot for the earlier subcontracted brass. Send a couple of pieces of the brass that have not been annealed to AMP.

 

[Mozella]

Then you must feel that our weather problem is man made . So wre are
Cool No more discussion needed
Larry

Now I understand.......... thanks.

 

[Rsadams]

I have shot real old ammo with no problems.. But just the other day I ran into a guy at the range that was saying he was having a problem with some 10 year old ( I think thats what he said..) lapua brass that he bought as loaded ammo from lapua they were still in the factory boxes. He said they wouldn't replace the older ammo but did replace some newer. The old batch was splitting necks.. These were not reloads but factory ammo... He said he had no problem with newer lapua factory or different brands and was asking me the same thing that if I thought they got hard sitting in a closet.. I was suprised they wouldn't take back the older stuff..

I have never seen this and told him I still occasionally have shot up 60 year old ammo that was my grandfather's stuff and never noticed it.. He bought like 500 rounds of the older lapua to keep and reload the brass.. From the looks of the remington 788 he was shooting he must not shoot that much.He said he bought it new and it still looked brand new..

Just strange to me someone posted this question after him asking me that.

 

[gotcha]

JRS is right. ................... If you happen to have the old non-Lapua made brass you might find Kevin Thomas will replace yours with the newer type. The non-Lapua .222 brass was made prior to 2008.

 

[243winxb]

I believe your condition was caused by excessive sizing and the cases stretched.

My thoughts also. Plus 5 firing, with a little stretch on each, it adds up. The "scratch" on the outside is the separation starting. Should be shiny

Excess brass flow/trimming is a load thats also over pressure.


The firing pin strike may set the shoulder back .006" My Savage 223 does this. Then the brass has to stretch each firing.

How heavy is the firing pin spring?

 

[LarryDScott]

The case pictured is exactly what mine looked like. I wasnt getting any over pressure signs at all.
The firing pin spring is a stock Remington 40X unit. LDS

 

[Texas10]

Great article, may answer some questions:https://www.ampannealing.com/articles/40/annealing-under-the-microscope/

 

[danny]

Can brass become brittle w/age????
Does anyone have any contact information for a Lapua Rep.??

I have some 222 Gold box Lapua, that was new
when I started loading them, using Redding Comp Dies.
I dont know how old it was when I bought it. Blue box had
been out at least 5 yrs.
They have been loaded only 5 times, the last 3 times I annealed
the necks on the AMP. at a setting off 55 (no on chart)

When sizing, you would swear the cases were made of steel, not brass.
It took effort to cycle the RC. The cases had grown in length quickly.
Cases were cut to trim length and reloaded.
When processing them the last time, I discovered 2 cases that had
what appeared to be scratches around the middle of the case.
Yesterday when I fired those 2 cases, they separated in the chamber.
Thats when I quit and went home to pull some bullets

When I attempted to pull the bullets w/an inertia hammer, they acted as if
they were glued in the case, but only had .003 NK tension. During the
pulling process, another case separated into 2 parts leaving the bullet in the neck,
while breaking my inertia hammer at the same time.

In 50 yrs of reloading, I have never had an experience like this.

Anyone have any ideas as to what caused this???? LDS

You bought the brass, new, that much I know from above. With that said, did you buy the brass from someone on the secondary market, or did you buy it right from a reloading/shooting supplier?

Danny

 

[Webster]

Great article, may answer some questions:https://www.ampannealing.com/articles/40/annealing-under-the-microscope/

Very good article. All real data. This is similar to the work I used to do. They went way beyond what most people would do in a lab.

 

[LarryDScott]

You bought the brass, new, that much I know from above. With that said, did you buy the brass from someone on the secondary market, or did you buy it right from a reloading/shooting supplier?

Danny

It was purchase from a fellow shooter who had got out of 222
competition. I bought 2 boxes, both were new. One box was head stamped 222 Remington Lapua, the other 222 Match Lapua.
The cases from the Match lot was the ones that came apart
LDS

 

[danny]

It was purchase from a fellow shooter who had got out of 222
competition. I bought 2 boxes, both were new. One box was head stamped 222 Remington Lapua, the other 222 Match Lapua.
The cases from the Match lot was the ones that came apart
LDS

Brass can get brittle under certain circumstances, such as when powder deteriorates. I had it happen to me. I believe, but do not remember that it is acid from the deteriorating powder. Perhaps, since you got it from an individual, unknown to the seller, he stored it in a basement or garage next to home chemicals that we all could have which caused the brass to get brittle.

Danny