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Brass ageing ?????

LarryDScott

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Can brass become brittle w/age????
Does anyone have any contact information for a Lapua Rep.??

I have some 222 Gold box Lapua, that was new
when I started loading them, using Redding Comp Dies.
I dont know how old it was when I bought it. Blue box had
been out at least 5 yrs.
They have been loaded only 5 times, the last 3 times I annealed
the necks on the AMP. at a setting off 55 (no on chart)

When sizing, you would swear the cases were made of steel, not brass.
It took effort to cycle the RC. The cases had grown in length quickly.
Cases were cut to trim length and reloaded.
When processing them the last time, I discovered 2 cases that had
what appeared to be scratches around the middle of the case.
Yesterday when I fired those 2 cases, they separated in the chamber.
Thats when I quit and went home to pull some bullets

When I attempted to pull the bullets w/an inertia hammer, they acted as if
they were glued in the case, but only had .003 NK tension. During the
pulling process, another case separated into 2 parts leaving the bullet in the neck,
while breaking my inertia hammer at the same time.

In 50 yrs of reloading, I have never had an experience like this.

Anyone have any ideas as to what caused this???? LDS
 
Last edited:
LarryDScott said:
Can brass become brittle w/age????

I have some 222 Gold box Lapua, that was new
when I started loading them, using Redding Comp Dies.
I dont know how old it was when I bought it. Blue box had
been out at least 5 yrs.
They have been loaded only 5 times, the last 3 times I annealed
the necks on the AMP. at a setting off 55 (no on chart)

When sizing, you would swear the cases were made of steel, not brass.
It took effort to cycle the RC. The cases had grown in length quickly.
Cases were cut to trim length and reloaded.
When processing them the last time, I discovered 2 cases that had
what appeared to be scratches around the middle of the case.
Yesterday when I fired those 2 cases, they separated in the chamber.
Thats when I quit and went home to pull some bullets

When I attempted to pull the bullets w/an inertia hammer, they acted as if
they were glued in the case, but only had .003 NK tension. During the
pulling process, another case separated into 2 parts leaving the bullet in the neck,
while breaking my inertia hammer at the same time.

In 50 yrs of reloading, I have never had an experience like this.

Anyone have any ideas as to what caused this???? LDS
Click to expand...
Never seen or heard of any thing like this in50 yrs of reloading
 
Not an expert on the .222 but .003 seems like a lot of neck tension for a .224 bullet. Having shot and reloaded ammo that was made during WW2, I don't believe the age is the cause of the brittleness and separation and is more likely the result of work hardening and/or stretching of the case. Take a paper clip or a scriber and feel inside the case to see if there is a bump or groove. Another option is to send some of the cases to Lapua and see if they can determine the problem. You may have just got a bad lot of brass.
 
LarryDScott said:
Can brass become brittle w/age????

I have some 222 Gold box Lapua, that was new
when I started loading them, using Redding Comp Dies.
I dont know how old it was when I bought it. Blue box had
been out at least 5 yrs.
They have been loaded only 5 times, the last 3 times I annealed
the necks on the AMP. at a setting off 55 (no on chart)

When sizing, you would swear the cases were made of steel, not brass.
It took effort to cycle the RC. The cases had grown in length quickly.
Cases were cut to trim length and reloaded.
When processing them the last time, I discovered 2 cases that had
what appeared to be scratches around the middle of the case.
Yesterday when I fired those 2 cases, they separated in the chamber.
Thats when I quit and went home to pull some bullets

When I attempted to pull the bullets w/an inertia hammer, they acted as if
they were glued in the case, but only had .003 NK tension. During the
pulling process, another case separated into 2 parts leaving the bullet in the neck,
while breaking my inertia hammer at the same time.

In 50 yrs of reloading, I have never had an experience like this.

Anyone have any ideas as to what caused this???? LDS
Click to expand...


Larry,
I have always believed and have witnessed, that munitions of any sort, do get old. I'm not a fan of those damn "intertia hammers" especially with aged cartridges. I base that upon exposure to aged munitions myself while still working as a Police Officer and part of the reason why we always called in the Sheriff's Bomb Squad whenever we found old "looking" that by their appearance alone, suggested that age had deteriorated their structure simply because of the unseen chemical processes that occurs with OLD ammunition. Dating ammunition is always good, but the circumstances in which they are stored also has an effect on how and what changes may occur on their structure. Not trying to be overdramatic, but I generally try and rotate OUT ammo that is more than 5 years old. And I do that simply because there is no way to tell what deterioration may have occurred, no matter how pretty that cartridge may look. Your safety is not worth saving that pretty old round that USED to shoot lights light. Guess I've been exposed to too situations where people were hurt and property destroyed because of unknown chemical processes.

Good luck my friend.
Alex
 
LarryDScott said:
Can brass become brittle w/age????

I have some 222 Gold box Lapua, that was new
when I started loading them, using Redding Comp Dies.
I dont know how old it was when I bought it. Blue box had
been out at least 5 yrs.
They have been loaded only 5 times, the last 3 times I annealed
the necks on the AMP. at a setting off 55 (no on chart)

When sizing, you would swear the cases were made of steel, not brass.
It took effort to cycle the RC. The cases had grown in length quickly.
Cases were cut to trim length and reloaded.
When processing them the last time, I discovered 2 cases that had
what appeared to be scratches around the middle of the case.
Yesterday when I fired those 2 cases, they separated in the chamber.
Thats when I quit and went home to pull some bullets

When I attempted to pull the bullets w/an inertia hammer, they acted as if
they were glued in the case, but only had .003 NK tension. During the
pulling process, another case separated into 2 parts leaving the bullet in the neck,
while breaking my inertia hammer at the same time.

In 50 yrs of reloading, I have never had an experience like this.

Anyone have any ideas as to what caused this???? LDS
Click to expand...
It's called COLD WELDING . Dissimilar metals do nasty things to tension you once had . If you want to disassemble them , first use your seating die to push the bullet in the case a LITTLE . That's all that needed . Then once apart and the primer is out I would anneal the necks .
 
For those of us that have been around the block a time or two, we have in our safes or storage more than one box of ammunition that is twenty plus years old. Kept at the right climate, gun powder is extremely stable and performs well even though it's thirty years or older. I've got a couple of 30-06 cans from the Korean war; over the past few years when I've taken some out to shoot it has performed flawlessly. Last week I reloaded several cartridges to perform some ladder tests this weekend, the gunpowder is from the 1980's.

In summation, if someone is having issues with loads that are 4-5 years old, it's not the powder or components. A lot can go wrong with brass that's been reloaded 5-6 times and annealed 4-5 times. Brass doesn't need to be annealed every time you reload, in fact, annealing time and again is asking for trouble.
 
Couple of things -

I had a box of Norma 6.5 X 54 MS with steel-jacketed bullets (at least the jackets were ferromagnetic) that produced a galvanic cell with the case, which caused what looked like rust to develop and expand the neck enough to split. Total loss.

Working with an R2 Lovell, the cases that arrived with the rifle failed upon firing. Newer (slightly) cases worked OK. Had a similar experience with a Hornet with brass maybe half a century old.
 
LarryDScott said:
Can brass become brittle w/age????

I have some 222 Gold box Lapua, that was new
when I started loading them, using Redding Comp Dies.
I dont know how old it was when I bought it. Blue box had
been out at least 5 yrs.
They have been loaded only 5 times, the last 3 times I annealed
the necks on the AMP. at a setting off 55 (no on chart)

When sizing, you would swear the cases were made of steel, not brass.
It took effort to cycle the RC. The cases had grown in length quickly.
Cases were cut to trim length and reloaded.
When processing them the last time, I discovered 2 cases that had
what appeared to be scratches around the middle of the case.
Yesterday when I fired those 2 cases, they separated in the chamber.
Thats when I quit and went home to pull some bullets

When I attempted to pull the bullets w/an inertia hammer, they acted as if
they were glued in the case, but only had .003 NK tension. During the
pulling process, another case separated into 2 parts leaving the bullet in the neck,
while breaking my inertia hammer at the same time.

In 50 yrs of reloading, I have never had an experience like this.

Anyone have any ideas as to what caused this???? LDS
Click to expand...

It appears that your annealing machine is heating the case too low. You appear to be softening the sides of the case rather than the neck. This would explain both the hard neck and soft sides.
I still use the the old fashioned hand held in the blowtorch method, which has worked perfectly for me over thousands of rounds.
I also stopped tumbling my brass, as this can leave the neck so work hardened that no amount of annealing can undo it. I discovered this after breaking a couple of kinetic pullers.
 
CHS in the center of the body has zero to do with any annealing. The parting line is where the thinner walled forward portion of the case expanded to grab the chamber firmly, the lower thick portion of the case did not, and there was enough room for it to move backwards over one or more firings and cause a CHS. Finding out the root cause(s) of why it had that much room to move backwards is the tricky part.
 
It seems as though some are reading this as old/stored ammo. Quiet the contrary. Its loaded and shot in the same day. All I am trying to determine is what happened to the brass to cause it to become in this hard brittle condition. Is it or was it something in the composition of the brass that caused this, as in a defective lot????
As far as tumbling causing the problem, I cant see that. If this was the case, I would have had this issue many yrs ago. I ways include tumbling in every cycle of reloading.
In regards to insufficient annealing heat, all I can say is I used the chart number. BTW the mfg of the AMP recommends annealing every reloading cycle. If anything judging by the color it could have been over heated. I thought someone may have had a similar experience, or know if empty brass has a shelf life??? LDS
 
Last edited:
LarryDScott said:
It seems as though some are reading this as old/stored ammo. Quiet the contrary. Its loaded and shot in the same day. All I am trying to determine is what happened to the brass to cause it to become in this hard brittle condition. Is it or was it something in the composition of the brass that caused this, as in a defective lot????
As far as tumbling causing the problem, I cant see that. If this was the case, I would have had this issue many yrs ago. I ways include tumbling in every cycle of reloading.
In regards to insufficient annealing heat, all I can say is I used the chart number. BTW the mfg of the AMP recommends annealing every reloading cycle. If anything judging by the color it could have been over heated. I thought someone may have had a similar experience, or know if empty brass has a shelf life??? LDS
Click to expand...
That is what brass can do with age . Google brass . Larry
 
savagedasher said:
It is called age harding and yes it does .
How much would depend on where it was stored . Larry
Click to expand...
Can you point me toward any scientific article which indicates cartridge brass is subject to age hardening? I'm asking because when I studied metallurgy, I was taught that cartridge brass did not age harden. However, that was a long time ago and perhaps the science associated with cartridge brass has advanced.
 
"Season cracking" on wikipedia gives an explanation of an interaction with ammonia and copper.

I found another site that discusses the properties of the metals and their impurities being conducive to electrical issues that could accellerate brass corrosion:

http://www.abbeyclock.com/polish2.html#Cracking

There are other web sites that contradict this, and apparently small amounts of ammonia were beneficial in some brass treating operations.

I've come to the conclusion, without a heavy chemistry or metallurgy background, that ammonia might just be best to not handle near brass unless it's a compound specifically designed for brass.

In other words, it depends.
 
Mozella said:
Can you point me toward any scientific article which indicates cartridge brass is subject to age hardening? I'm asking because when I studied metallurgy, I was taught that cartridge brass did not age harden. However, that was a long time ago and perhaps the science associated with cartridge brass has advanced.
Click to expand...
Brass is made from coppers for zinc
The mixture of each is determines the quality
That is why some brass holds up better then other . Larry
 
Last edited:
Since everyone seems to have an opinion and theory Ill add mine.

Old brass gets brittle. Ive shot some old 30-30 winchester ammo and cases split... then Ive shot some and they didnt. Still aint worth saving old old brass to reload.
 
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