Setting up sizing die - Wide range of BTS measurements on fired brass???

[Shynloco]

Personally, if I have brass that has been fired in another chamber, whether it chambers nicely or not and particularly in a new chamber, I ALWAYS run the casing through an FL or Small Based Die (with no shoulder bump if it chambers easily) simply so all the casings have the identical shaped starting point. I do record the casing's measurements and then fire the brass and re-measure again, recording the change or need for any shoulder bump and trim as needed. Just my .02 worth.

Alex

 

[Rsadams]

Personally, if I have brass that has been fired in another chamber, whether it chambers nicely or not and particularly in a new chamber, I ALWAYS run the casing through an FL or Small Based Die (with no shoulder bump if it chambers easily) simply so all the casings have the identical shaped starting point. I do record the casing's measurements and then fire the brass and re-measure again, recording the change or need for any shoulder bump and trim as needed. Just my .02 worth.

Alex

Thank you...some good advice...

 

[ireload2]

Sometimes the least helpful and least articulate are the first to answer a newbie's questions. That is not too good for the forum because the newbie does not have the background to discriminate between the good and the bad.

I and others have been doing that for decades.

Using fired cases from rifles with squared up bolt faces, full length size them to case headspace increments of .001" starting a couple thousandths inch less than a chamber GO headspace gauge to several thousandth longer. Use gan RCBS Precision Mic or Hornady LNL case headspace gauge to compare them to the steel GO gauge marking their size on them. Fill them with plastic steel epoxy to minimize (prevent?) shoulder setback when chambered.

Use them incrementaly starting with the shortest one gauging the chamber with rifle horizontal and a stripped bolt inserting one then let the weight of the bolt handle close the bolt. When the bolt closes only part way, chamber headspace is between that "gauge" marked length and the previous shorter one that let the bolt close easy.

Read through this again if not sure of what's happening. Ask for help if you choose.

Careful, F. Guffey; please don't confuse people wanting to learn how to do this.

 

[Jet]

Lou

On the fired cases, did you remove the primers prior to measuring the shoulders? If not, punch them out and re-measure.

Good shooting.

Rich

 

[KMart]

Sometimes the least helpful and least articulate are the first to answer a newbie's questions. That is not too good for the forum because the newbie does not have the background to discriminate between the good and the bad.

It is interesting that the most articulate and intelligent among us didn't try to help the newbie out. Or maybe the newbie isn't smart enough to understand articulate and intelligent explanations.

 

[Mega]

It is interesting that the most articulate and intelligent among us didn't try to help the newbie out.

I'm not sure who you are referring to here but I was one of the first to reply and give a bit of advice based on like 50 years in this experiment of reloading.

If I see a genuine question, I will try and answer the best I can based on my knowledge as a precision shooter and reloader with many thousands of dollars invested in this hobby to achieve what I want before I leave this planet.

I have taught old (50YO) and young (18YO) how to win at National Competition level the art of reloading for Precision.

I'm just an old Aussie.. ie Land Down Under. I know nothing, just do very well at my own tasks like achieving a 5 shot 0.200 MOA groups or less at 550 Yards (500 Metres) but do the same thing in my varminting at near the same distances.

I just hope I qualify to give you Yanks a little bit of personal advice... If not appreciated then I'll give up.

 

[ireload2]

It is not a mystery. The post that I commented on had accurate and intelligent contributions made by later posters so that was not the problem The problem was the muddy water stirred up by the first commenter. A newbie cannot tell the quality comments from the garbage. After the water gets muddied who wants to clean it up? The newbie gets a bad first impression and the following posters have to work around the damage.
Newbies are generally lacking information and experience but not intelligence. Whereas the bozo that takes the newbie down a rabbit hole is suspect.

It is interesting that the most articulate and intelligent among us didn't try to help the newbie out. Or maybe the newbie isn't smart enough to understand articulate and intelligent explanations.

 

[Mega]

I will stick by my first post as best advice to help out.. End of story for me... !!

 

[ireload2]

You don't have to call us yanks nor drag that aussie chip around with you. The only thing that matters is the quality of your comments from both the technical and ease of comprehension point of view. While you have many years of experience many of us do also and the population of the US is 13 times that of Oz. Most of the world's reloading equipment and components are manufactured in the US.
About 50 years ago Handloader Magazine had a circulation of 30,000 copies a month. They did a statistical sampling of their subscribers and I think the average number of rifles owned by the subscribers was about 30.

I'm not sure who you are referring to here but I was one of the first to reply and give a bit of advice based on like 50 years in this experiment of reloading.

If I see a genuine question, I will try and answer the best I can based on my knowledge as a precision shooter and reloader with many thousands of dollars invested in this hobby to achieve what I want before I leave this planet.

I have taught old (50YO) and young (18YO) how to win at National Competition level the art of reloading for Precision.

I'm just an old Aussie.. ie Land Down Under. I know nothing, just do very well at my own tasks like achieving a 5 shot 0.200 MOA groups or less at 550 Yards (500 Metres) but do the same thing in my varminting at near the same distances.

I just hope I qualify to give you Yanks a little bit of personal advice... If not appreciated then I'll give up.

 

[Mega]

You don't have to call us yanks nor drag that aussie chip around with you. The only thing that matters is the quality of your comments from both the technical and ease of comprehension point of view. While you have many years of experience many of us do also and the population of the US is 13 times that of Oz. Most of the world's reloading equipment and components are manufactured in the US.
About 50 years ago Handloader Magazine had a circulation of 30,000 copies a month. They did a statistical sampling of their subscribers and I think the average number of rifles owned by the subscribers was about 30.

I get the hint...

I'll give up posting advice... All your's Pal.

 

[fguffey]

Using fired cases from rifles with squared up bolt faces, full length size them to case headspace increments of .001" starting a couple thousandths inch less than a chamber GO headspace gauge to several thousandth longer.

Bart B. You called SAAMI and SAAMI said the case does not have head space and they did not use a head space description or symbol in their case drawings; you will have to wait until the new hires arrive. At one time RCBS had instructions for their presses, at the same time they made cam over presses and non cam over presses. The instructions described the cam over press as a bump press (A2), and now? Reloaders bump everything and they described my 3 Rock Chuckers as cam over presses. My Rock Chuckers do not cam over. if they did the one way clutch on my Piggy Back attachments would lock up. Anyhow; forum members reported me to RCBS, they furnished a name and contact number and said If I would call him he would straighten me out.

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

I and others have been doing that for decades

There was a resource/builder/collector trying to get help on a forum that I considered socially dysfunctional. He was building a Rock Island 03 correct for 1911. He was trying to get someone to help him measure the length of the chamber on his new build; I understand the decades comment, I do not understand how someone with decades of experience can be around something all their life and know so little. No one on Culvers Shooting Page could help, all they managed to do was insult each other. He had a mill for sale, I made a shop call to check the mill; I purchased it.

While loading the mill he said something about head space and I said: "This is your luck day because I can measure the length of the chamber 3 different ways", it was about that time he interrupted and said he had 20 30/06 head space gages and then he handed me a box full of head space gages. I was impressed and then offered to modify one of the gages into a go-to infinity gage. He was not interested because it is worth more if it has not been messed? with.

I then removed items he had on hanging one the wall, I removed items from his tool boxes and stuff he had on his bench with the intension of demonstrating methods for measuring the length of the chamber; and he was not that interested. To shorten the story; his chamber was .0075 longer than a minimum length/full length sized case, it was .0025" longer than a go-gage. And then the dilemma: What do you do to correct a chamber that is .0025" longer than a go-gage length gage? He has close to 100 03 bolts, I have at least 35, between us we did not have a bolt that would shorten the length of the chamber .0025". Plus; period correct, the Rock Island 03 had a straight handle bolt. He had one straight handle bolt and I had one in a Rock Island rifle that no longer looks like a military issued rifle.

I offered to form cases for his rifle that would off set the length of his chamber, he contacted John B. once he knew what he needed, decades of experience. He received a bucket of bolts, WHY? It is not necessary, I can measure bolts for the effect they have on the length of the chamber.

F. Guffey

 

[ttfreestyle]

 

[Zero333]

You can take a fired case that has not fireformed all the way, insert a spent primer partly into the primer pocket. Chamber the brass with the primer sticking out and let the bolt shove the primer into the pocket when closing the bolt.

Now you can measure base to shoulder datum to get a accurate reading. Remember this measurement is going to be 0.001" to 0.002" longer than a properly fireformed case that has sprung back during the firing. So subtract 0.003" from that measurement to obtain your ideal bumped measurement.

Man I hope I make sense because I been at work all night.

 

[hogpatrol]

 

[fguffey]

Man I hope I make sense because I been at work all night.

ZERO333, you make perfect sense, it is possible to fire a case with a decent load and form the case to the chamber. For most firing a round in a chamber without knowing the length of the chamber or the effect the chamber will have on the case can be risky. I measure the length of the chamber before I chamber a round and pull the trigger, I cut chambers, when I cut a chamber I know exactly how far I have to go to complete the chamber. Others suggest your should measure often.

I have never been impressed with fixed gages, I want to know the length of the chamber in thousandths. Most are happy with the bolt closing on a go-gage and not closing on a no go-gage, again, I want to know the length of the chamber from the datum to the bolt face in thousandths. One more time, I have one rifle with a chamber that is .002" longer than a field reject length gage. Meaning is .002" longer than a field reject length gage or .016" longer than a minimum length/full length sized case or .011" longer than a go-gage length chamber. I form 30/06 cases from 280 Remington cases with .014" added between the shoulder and case head then load and chamber the formed cases with the magic .002" clearance.

I could chamber full length sized/factory, store bought ammo in the rifle and fire, for most the unbelievable thing about the event is the case does not stretch between the case head and case body meaning the shoulder on the case does not move when the case is fired. But there are those that swear the firing pin drives the case forward until the shoulder of the case collide with the shoulder of the chamber. I chooser to reduce the clearance between the shoulder of the case and shoulder of the chamber so I choose to form the cases to fit.

F. Guffey

 

[Bart B.]

Bart B. You called SAAMI and SAAMI said the case does not have head space and they did not use a head space description or symbol in their case drawings; you will have to wait until the new hires arrive.

Half that’s true. No mention of waiting until new hires show up; that’s your misconstrusion.

I’m gonna tell you what most was discussed some decades ago when I asked SAAMI’s rep about all this stuff. But I hope you won’t misconstrue any of it in your remarks about it.
...................................
Asked the rep about cases having headspace. He said SAAMI has no spec for it, but die and ammo making companies oft times use it and have gauges to measure it making cases and ammo. Reloaders do too, and they can buy gauges to make theirs. He said he thought some of the first gauges were made by Sierra Bullet’s tool and die makers gauging their cases used to test bullets. I replied that I agree. I’ve got two of them one of their tool and die makers made on his own selling them at rifle matches.

Then SAAMI’s rep mentioned that some companies subscribing to SAAMI terms and standards for the space between bolt/breech face and case head termed “head clearance,” headspace; and it’s the most often misused term by people referring to head clearance but calling it headspace. Hornady by name was one company he mentioned who misused it. Another SAAMI spec is velocity standards that go with their pressure specs; +/- 90 fps, but people get bent out of shape when a load shoots 70 fps different than what the ammo company states; doesn’t matter that its in the 180 fps extreme spread according to SAAMI specs.

He mentioned other terms and conventions that oft times comes up in the industry but SAAMI has no standard for but makes 100% sense and are good for measuring and discussing ammo component stuff:

* Bullet runout. 3 or 4 different gauges on the market all getting different runout numbers for the same round of ammo.

* Mouth clearance; space between case mouth in fired position and front of chamber mouth. Chamber and case spec dimensions that can calculate the spec, but few, if any do that.

* Bullet pull (release or extraction) force needed to get a bullet out of case necks. Military has standards and specs but none for commercial ammo nor in SAAMI specs. But it is listed in SAAMI’s glossary

A few others were discussed but the above’s enough to get the message across.

PS:

My 2 RCBS Rockchuckers, Partner and Junior press all cam over when the die bottom's pressed hard by shell holders ramming up tight to it. My presses are not the only ones that do that. Steel stretches.

 

[Fotheringill]

Make sure all of the cases are completely fire formed before fiddling around. That way, they are uniform. THEN, trim to same length, turn to a uniform thickness, chamfer, seat one round, check the OD of the neck of the loaded round, subtract the 1/1000, seat another round to be sure all matches and you should be good to go as long as your neck turning was truly uniform.

 

[Brians356]

Unless all your initial loads were fairly hot, you can expect considerable variation in base-to-shoulder measurement. Run loads through all those cases again, preferably all hotter loads, sizing necks only, then measure them again.

Did you happen to measure the shoulders of any virgin cases? Keep in mind it's not unusual for them to have on the order of .008" headspace (in mass-produced chambers anyway - yours may well be tighter) so there's a considerable range they can settle within after one firing if the loads range from mild to hot. The softness and consistency of the brass has a bearing on this as well.

If you are not sure about your measurement tool / technique, just record the measurements for 5 or 10 cases chosen at random, then go back and measure them again, see if you duplicate all the original values.

PS

I handloaded for accuracy for years, successfully, before I ever owned a FL die. I used a common RCBS neck die for a long time, then later switched to a Redding bushing die. This was 223 Rem in a Rem 700, and while I always loaded up to and beyond max book values, I never had trouble closing bolts, but did notice some variation in stiffness. (Small-diameter cases are easier to overpower with the bolt's camming action than larger ones, as I found out later.) I started with about 80 WW cases, and reloaded them up to nine times each without ever sizing a body or moving a shoulder. I've never shot smaller groups than that rifle's best with any other rifle since, but I'm not as steady behind the butt as I was back then. I finally retired those old cases when I was given a batch of new RWS.
-

 

[MoneyWaster]

Are you by chance using CCI 41's or 450's, 7 1/2's, Tula SRM/5.56?

I'm using CCI 400s.