How have E-targets changed wind calling

[dkynoch]

I have searched the forum and have not found an answer to this question.

How did the new E-targets that where used at the nationals at Lodi change how competitors called wind? I know that they still had mirage and flags to use as wind indicators, but how did not seeing spotters on the targets of other competitors change the game?

Do you think it mixed up the top shooters a little and ones that are used to using the spotters of those that are behind the wind as there main indicator didnt do as well?

 

[daniel.chisholm]

> ...E-targets ... used ... at Lodi.... but how did not seeing spotters on the targets of other competitors change the game?

Now why would you say that shooters could not see the spotters on the other targets?

They could - the chief difference from shooting on manually-marked targets is that instead of looking through their riflescopes or spotting scopes, they had to look at their e-target display panel to see other shooters' spotters.

 

[spclark]

I know from my experience with a single-user SMT system it enhances the feedback loop between doping the wind (spotting scope), making a sighting / shot release decision, and seeing where a shot's POI ends up.

That a user sees the results of their decision-making process with greater immediacy than what's possible with a pulled'n'marked target was my first real 'ahHA!' takeaway moment.

Others, using the system for the first time, invariably come away with that same thought.

 

[spclark]

...they had to look at their e-target display panel to see other shooters' spotters.

True enough Dan but that experience is affected by any given shooter's perception of those other-target images on their display device.

The information is there but to my mind it's not the same as seeing other folks' spotters on other targets that look essentially like mine own thru a spotting scope.

If nothing else the difference in scale between my target image and the thumbnail target images arrayed across the bottom of the screen is enough to make one pause.

It takes time to process the difference in information format, more time than what it takes when looking thru a spotting or rifle scope IMHO.

 

[daniel.chisholm]

spclark - agreed - all fair comments. While a shooter CAN see fall of shot on the other e-targets on the range, it is a DIFFERENT process and to be honest a bit more DIFFICULT process than seeing this through the rifle/spotting scope.

 

[spclark]

In keeping with a spirit of full disclosure I own, use, and enjoy a G2 SMT system myself.

I "bought into" the concept and the SMT technology when the price point became manageable.

About the same time I moved close enough to a 600-yard range to make regular visits practical.

Being able to evaluate load protocols, and practice without the presence of another 'body' - as rewarding as that can be - is what motivated me to move in this direction.

I have yet - with one truncated exception - actually to compete in a match where ET's are deployed.

As other ranges acquire and install ET systems, and both new and seasoned shooters gain experience with how the traditional pulled target match experience differs from that where ET's are used, we'll adapt.

That's something we're all capable of doing.

 

[SWRichmond]

Am I going to have to put on my reading glasses after each shot in order to bask in the joy of electronic targets? I didn't have to do that with my spotting scope or rifle scope...

 

[dkynoch]

I guess I didn't know that the system allows the shooter to see other targets at the bottom.

 

[JohnKielly]

Am I going to have to put on my reading glasses after each shot in order to bask in the joy of electronic targets? I didn't have to do that with my spotting scope or rifle scope...

It's the pits. I have had cataract surgery & as a shooter had both eyes set up for distance vision. I'm pretty much slower with ETs. I still shoot & prepare the rifle for the next shot, but in the past where I used get behind the scope & wait for the return of the target, now I have to force my eye to a fuzzy short focus to the screen to see the shot, then relax it back to distance focus to use my scope(s). meanwhile, because I have turned my chin to the right to spot the shot, I have to check that I haven't bumped the back bag off target.

 

[1shot]

It's the pits. I have had cataract surgery & as a shooter had both eyes set up for distance vision. I'm pretty much slower with ETs. I still shoot & prepare the rifle for the next shot, but in the past where I used get behind the scope & wait for the return of the target, now I have to force my eye to a fuzzy short focus to the screen to see the shot, then relax it back to distance focus to use my scope(s). meanwhile, because I have turned my chin to the right to spot the shot, I have to check that I haven't bumped the back bag off target.

I just bought a 10" display tablet in hopes that I don't have this exact problem. It also has a quick enlargement feature that I should be a help.

Lloyd

 

[J P Brown]

I'm not a very active target shooter, but I do attend the odd match. I'm more of a hunter.
But one thing I do miss, or feel I might of had a slight advantage, (not that I'm very serious) was I have moa reticles. Most others have a plain cross hair. With the old way, using my reticle, I could measure from the bull to the spotter and therefore make a accurate adjustment. (Maybe more serious guys could do this knowing how big the rings are)
Anyway, now everyone can do it using our et as there is a moa grid over the target, on the screen.

 

[dkynoch]

I have stopped shooting F-Class mostly because I hated spending what is supposed to me my hobby and fun down in the pits pulling targets most of the day. E-targets fix this. The only problem is I am sure the ranges I shoot at won't get them for a long time.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

My first close encounter with ETs was at the Nationals in Lodi last year. We showed up in time to shoot the MR team matches. I've been in information technology (computer geek) for 45 years, so the concept and use of the ET and tablets was not an issue for me, but it was something new when you're outside in a field. We got a crash course on the use of the app and then we started the match.

I was wind coach for the team and my very first impression was that I was looking at a blank featureless wall. After decades of competition watching an immobile row of targets was disconcerting, to say the least. As a rule, I do not focus on my neighbors' targets, but I am aware of them. I see them in my spotting scope when I'm looking at conditions and score and they are just another data point. I sometimes look many targets over to see if there's something of which I need to be aware.

I found the tablet difficult to see in the bright sunlight and the target row to be very small and for my aging eyes, difficult to make out. I did not want to waste time looking at the tablet and trying to figure things out, when calling wind, I stay focused on the conditions from beginning to end and do not want distractions.

When shooting the individuals, I found the tablets still difficult to see and the last thing I needed was to break position to examine other targets. I also missed the shot spotter on the target itself, because as an old fart, any visual clues reminding me of the prior result is "a good thing" to have. It was a big change for me.

On the last day I brought my own Samsung tables with the 12.2 inch screen and that helped some. One of the issues was that my sunglasses are polarized and looking at the screen with those lenses brings on a new challenge. This also means that you need to have bifocals or cheaters when looking at the screen, especially if you want to see the row of targets at the bottom. Finally, I'm colorblind so looking for the red dot on the screen was quite difficult; I just wish the shot markers on the row of targets was white and not red. Whoever picked the color red for a shot spotter should be strapped to an ET for a match. I'm sure that can be easily changed, just didn't have the time to look for it.

 

[Bindi2]

The removal of the spotter and not being able to see what has happened on other targets means YOU now have to read the wind not adjust on somebodies elses result. This is what true wind reading skill is

 

[spclark]

The removal of the spotter and not being able to see what has happened on other targets means YOU now have to read the wind not adjust on somebodies elses result.

I was gonna post something to that effect when I first read the OP's submission. Couldn't think of how to put it without coming off (in my head at least) a little snide, so I settled for what I did send in.

My only adition would be that it's a useful tool seeing how other, maybe better, wind-readers' shots are affected by the wind when one is struggling to become a better wind reader one's self. Kinda like keeping a shot-by-shot plot book, which I gave up on a few years ago rather than be breaking my position down to take notes, breaking my concentration on what was going on down range all the while.

As Dan's stated the information is still there, just not as readily accessible as before.

And as for those color-blind amongst us? That's a valid criticism. I'll be seeing Dan & Marc later this week at Lodi, will raise the issue then.

I did note last year while messing with a Windows-only chamber pressure reading system I could see my laptop's display much better outside after I switched the display to B&W instead of color. I haven't yet found a means to do that on the IPad mini I use when I'm using an SMT system. If a similar change is possible with the devices you folks are using it may help you once you've enabled that feature. I'll discuss this with Scotty at WGC, maybe the tablets they acquired can be configured the same way.

 

[Bindi2]

Because you have instant display the learning curve is almost vertical learning the wind call. One of the reasons I am against time delays. I am not saying you will be perfect but you will be a lot better quicker.

 

[spclark]

Because you have instant display the learning curve is almost vertical learning the wind call.

OK so the effect I described in my first post on this thread agrees with what you've seen.

Use the feedback loop ET's provide to learn wind-reading faster than when conventional pulled targets are the practice.

I had to ponder your use of the word vertical, which to me otherwise implies an insurmountable obstacle! In this case it's more like the "ahHA!" moment I referred to when one realizes the benefits of what the system is showing you!

The challenge then is to abandon old habits ingrained when shooting on traditional targets.

 

[dkynoch]

I agree that if it is harder to read wind off the spotters the shooter has to read the wind based on other indicators. I actually never really watched the spotters on other peoples targets that close as a wind indicator. I realized I was missing something though the first time I went to nationals and noticed that a lot of top shooters do. I shot next to a competitor that took 11th overall in the world championships in FTR and the spotters where his main if not only wind indicator.

The main reason I started shooting FTR was to become a expert wind reader for hunting situations so I always thought reading wind off the spotters was counter productive to my initial goal. I can't say all top shooters use the spotters, I noticed that shooters like Darrel Buell seem to read wind really well using the main indicators people talk about, flags and mirage through the spotting scope.

I mostly started this tread because I thought I would be an interesting discussion. When I shot the world championships I realized that I need to add looking at the spotters more to the tools I use if I wanted to get better at the game of F-class, but not reading wind in real world situations.

 

[ngb1787]

As an owner of an e target I can tell you one very important thing. I have learned how to asses conditions and react to conditions 10x quicker. Assuming I asses the condition correctly I can put rounds down range in that exact condition quicker than before conditions decide to change. There are definitely assets to conditioning yourself to this. Looking at other spotters is always a guessing game depending on who you are shooting with also wondering if that person has already compensated for previous shot.

 

[jsudduth]

I use(d) other shooters spotters minimally. Not knowing what hold they are using makes the placement of their spotter pointless in my opinion. The only potential value I see is if there is a drastic change that blows just about everybody out in the same direction. But even that is old information.