How do BR shooters get away with it?

[dkhunt14]

Good informative post. However, to counter a long running "myth" the reloading dies are typically closely matched to the rifles chamber. A die cut from the same reamer as the barrel chamber simply will not work.

At IBS Nationals in 2015 I saw a lot of guys using scales to check thrown charges.

Well as someone mentioned I would not lump all bench rest shooters together. I live in the Cleveland, Ohio suburbs. My range of choice is Keblys Range they manufacture some fine bench rest rifles, many based on the Stole Action. While I am not a bench rest type I did build myself a 6mm PPC and listen to the serious bench rest shooters. These are your short range BR people shooting 100 and 200 yards. The big draw every year is the annual super shoot which as a member of the range I like looking around at and talking with the shooters. While the high end guys roll in with half million dollar RVs their entry fee buys some table space in one of the large barns. I have never seen a shooter roll in with a machine shop in tow. They show up with nice well designed portable loading stations and I never saw anyone annealing necks on site. You will see custom dies in custom presses. These are generaqlly dies which were cut from the same reamer that cut their chambers. Never saw a powder scale, they all pretty much use the Harrel Powder Throws and work strictly from throwing volume. The entry fee includes some card table space, maybe 5 linear feet of bench space. I took a few phone pictures on the line for 2016:

On average they run 5 shots, wet the bore and run several cotton patches through the bores on a tight jag usually on a Dewey or similar rod. The super shoot is a blast as you meet people and plenty of venders hawking their wares as well as some sweet rifles for sale. Hell, anyone planning the super shoot let me know and I'll meet you out there, You will find that much of the myth is unfounded but there is a hell of a lot of fun and learning to be had and just some real nice people to talk to.

Ron

I went to the 2013 and 2015 IBS Group Nationals. Talked to a lot of shooters, asked them about annealing and most of them laughed and said they don't. A lot of them were weighing charges on scales. It seems every year more of them are doing it. This is a points event for shooter of the year so most the top short range guys were there. Matt

 

[savagedasher]

Well as someone mentioned I would not lump all bench rest shooters together. I live in the Cleveland, Ohio suburbs. My range of choice is Keblys Range they manufacture some fine bench rest rifles, many based on the Stole Action. While I am not a bench rest type I did build myself a 6mm PPC and listen to the serious bench rest shooters. These are your short range BR people shooting 100 and 200 yards. The big draw every year is the annual super shoot which as a member of the range I like looking around at and talking with the shooters. While the high end guys roll in with half million dollar RVs their entry fee buys some table space in one of the large barns. I have never seen a shooter roll in with a machine shop in tow. They show up with nice well designed portable loading stations and I never saw anyone annealing necks on site. You will see custom dies in custom presses. These are generaqlly dies which were cut from the same reamer that cut their chambers. Never saw a powder scale, they all pretty much use the Harrel Powder Throws and work strictly from throwing volume. The entry fee includes some card table space, maybe 5 linear feet of bench space. I took a few phone pictures on the line for 2016:

On average they run 5 shots, wet the bore and run several cotton patches through the bores on a tight jag usually on a Dewey or similar rod. The super shoot is a blast as you meet people and plenty of venders hawking their wares as well as some sweet rifles for sale. Hell, anyone planning the super shoot let me know and I'll meet you out there, You will find that much of the myth is unfounded but there is a hell of a lot of fun and learning to be had and just some real nice people to talk to.

Ron

What's wrong with the end the gun barrels ?
Is that a tuner?
Smile Larry

 

[mgunderson]

I think it is important to remember that we all have experience from different disciplines, guns, calibers, powders. They don't all like the same things, but it is interesting to learn from others experiences. My preference is sling and coat. The F-class and benchrest worlds have a different reloading process than I use. I'm interested and just finished reading Mike Ratigan's book (great benchrest book). Not sure how much applies to reloading for my palma rifles, but I enjoy learning and improving my knowledge.

 

[Tommie]

We're told bench rest shooters know everything there is to know about reloading. They bring a trailer full of gear with them. They load 5 rounds at a time. After shooting those 5 rounds they go back to their machine shop on wheels and reload those 5 cases and fire them again.

How do they get away with not annealing after each firing? Do they trim/chamfer/debur after each firing? Do they clean with steel pins in an overnight bath of secret solutions?

If not, why do we?

Short range bench shooters: please do not read this...

I learned a long time ago that the days of innovation were essentially dead in 100 & 200 yard benchrest. They tend to gravitate to whatever equipment happened to win the last big shoot. It's a herd mentality like I've seen in no other sport.

Just because the short rangers are all doing it, don't assume "it" is the best approach. Most of those guys are simply playing Follow the Leader.

 

[JimPag]

Results on target provide the answer. But you must have a rifle/optic/rest system and proven loads you can trust to see the difference. FWIW, I believe most score shooters anneal their 30 BR brass because they want to be competitive.

Most of the top IBS short range score shooters that I know anneal their 30BR or variant cases, but each has his own approach on when they do it. Some do it just twice a year, some like me do it after every 3rd firing of a case. I know that if I let it go more than 3 times, I risk the case neck splitting. Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[LHSmith]

Short range bench shooters: please do not read this...

I learned a long time ago that the days of innovation were essentially dead in 100 & 200 yard benchrest. They tend to gravitate to whatever equipment happened to win the last big shoot. It's a herd mentality like I've seen in no other sport.

Just because the short rangers are all doing it, don't assume "it" is the best approach. Most of those guys are simply playing Follow the Leader.

How is that any different from the other shooting disciplines .....or any sport endeavor for that matter? Innovation dead in SR BR? Who was the first to "freeze" scopes, which led to new scope companies that solved the shifting POA problem? Who was the first to use mirage shields on their barrels? Who was the first to use bullet coatings to permit longer shot strings before cleaning was necessary? There are more reamer designs for the 6 PPC than any other cartridge, competitors are constantly tweaking the case to get an edge. Variants like the Grendel, and 30 BR have won both group and score matches, and even the 30/30. Hell, even a .20 Vartarg won a registered IBS match. Where were the first cartridge caddies used? I could go on, but you get the point.
But the fact remains that the 6 PPC is the most accurate case design for short range Benchrest due to it's agging ability. The name of the game is winning, not who shows up with a different mousetrap that is almost as good.

 

[CharlieNC]

The smallest group I've ever shot at a 1000-BR match was a 2.553" (LT-Gun) with brass on its 19th-cycle, never annealed, (0.0095" neck walls). Those same 5 cases on there 18th-cycle shot a 3.261" group at a previous match. On there 17th-cycle they went slightly over 2" while testing at home.

The 2nd smallest group I've ever shot at a 1000-BR match was a 2.676" with brass "Annealed +2-cycles", and was its 7th life-time cycle, only annealed (Amp) the one time.

As Alex stated: "testing" is what proves out to our own scenario's. Good to hear what works for others, but often is not what ends up working for me.

My 2-Cents
Donovan

Exactly. I don't shoot BR, but Ftr and tac type matches so I go through a lot of rounds. As such I do not allocate extensive time to immaculate brass prep, and will run its life as long as possible. I did learn variable seating depth caused by variable neck tension were resolved by annealing. The criticality of a factor depends quite a bit on the circumstance, and with diverse applications one size does not fit all.

 

[JimPag]

Short range bench shooters: please do not read this...

I learned a long time ago that the days of innovation were essentially dead in 100 & 200 yard benchrest. They tend to gravitate to whatever equipment happened to win the last big shoot. It's a herd mentality like I've seen in no other sport.

Just because the short rangers are all doing it, don't assume "it" is the best approach. Most of those guys are simply playing Follow the Leader.

I think your right to a point Tommie that some tend to gravitate to equipment trends without a doubt. There are always going to be people who do that in every sport. Perfect example is drag racing. Years ago when I was on a funny car crew in the mid-70's, when Don Prudhomme started winning races beginning in 75 with his new Ed Pink blower, everybody started to order them. Same with the injectors. When he went from the Enderle to the Crower 8 port, everybody started to change to a Crower. You can show up with a bra on your head and if you win, the next week you'll probably see some people wearing one at the next match. Humans are just a weird creature of habit.

 

[Webster]

Short range bench shooters: please do not read this...

I learned a long time ago that the days of innovation were essentially dead in 100 & 200 yard benchrest. They tend to gravitate to whatever equipment happened to win the last big shoot. It's a herd mentality like I've seen in no other sport.

Just because the short rangers are all doing it, don't assume "it" is the best approach. Most of those guys are simply playing Follow the Leader.

Per Tony Boyer's book if I read it correctly: Most of the shooters at big matches have rifles that are good enough to win but they never finish near the top. The big thing is reading conditions and tuning when your trying to shoot 1/4" 25 shot aggregates. They are not morons and afraid of innovation because most of them are shooting and reloading in a similar way.

 

[tenring]

A die cut from the same reamer as the barrel chamber simply will not work.

That statement is completely illogical and contrary to all I have heard and read over a good many years. Many BR shooters insist that barrel chamber and sizer die be cut by the same reamer.

 

[savagedasher]

That statement is completely illogical and contrary to all I have heard and read over a good many years. Many BR shooters insist that barrel chamber and sizer die be cut by the same reamer.

I think what he is saying the chamber reamer would be the same size as the chamber so it wouldn't size . The order two reamers one for sizeing the other for the chamber . Larry

 

[dkhunt14]

That statement is completely illogical and contrary to all I have heard and read over a good many years. Many BR shooters insist that barrel chamber and sizer die be cut by the same reamer.

They use the same reamer for a seater die. If you use the chamber reamer for a size die you will get bolt click. They order a resize reamer which is usually .002 smaller the the chamber reamer. Matt

 

[jds holler]

That statement is completely illogical and contrary to all I have heard and read over a good many years. Many BR shooters insist that barrel chamber and sizer die be cut by the same reamer.

I have also read about this. It seems that an identical chamber die wouldn't be able to size the case body, but if shortened, could bump the shoulder, and also size the neck if equipped with the proper bushing.-- a neck sizing bushing die??

 

[Tim Singleton]

Most have custom or semi custom (Harrels is one) sizing die made.
They are not made from the same reamer as the chambering reamer

 

[tightneck]

Well, apparently there's a bunch of folks under the assumption that what Dick Wright wrote about in PS 20+ years ago is still in vogue now. Far from it. The herd mentality accusation has some merit, but things change in benchrest faster than in most disciplines I'd bet. Slow twist 30 caliber barrels didn't exist 15 years ago. Tuners were almost non-existent on the line 10 years ago, now they are the norm. While everyone may eventually jump on the bandwagon, experimentation is far from dead in benchrest. The gains are smaller than they were in the last century, but that's because there's not as much room for improvement.

 

[LHSmith]

I have also read about this. It seems that an identical chamber die wouldn't be able to size the case body, but if shortened, could bump the shoulder, and also size the neck if equipped with the proper bushing.-- a neck sizing bushing die??

Most competitive shooters find best accuracy in the highest nodes which run 70K psi. In which case neck sizers (or even ill fitted FL dies) become user UNfriendly. Furthermore, what you are describing is known as a shoulder bump die. -It's drawback is it will not hold the diameter at the shoulder i.e it will distort the shoulder-body junction....and all but preclude smooth bolt operation.

 

[LHSmith]

That statement is completely illogical and contrary to all I have heard and read over a good many years. Many BR shooters insist that barrel chamber and sizer die be cut by the same reamer.

IIRC, Jim Carstersen used the chambering reamer to cut a resize die. However, a special alloy was used that when heat treated shrank the ID of the die to where it would sufficiently size the case. Pretty sure he no longer uses that method.

 

[Tim Singleton]

Experimentation is

I use Forster Bump dies (4 of them), and I have no problems. They do not distort the shoulder-body junction.

the problem with any shoulder bump die that does not size the body
At the high pressure we run. The base of the case isn't sized and you get an ill extracting fired case the click it's called. The bolt stops and requires extra effort to raise to fully open. This will upset the rifle in the bags
No one is saying they don't have their place I guess they just are not used in short range benchrest

 

[dkhunt14]

I use Forster Bump dies (4 of them), and I have no problems. They do not distort the shoulder-body junction.

I hate to tell you but the dies do inrease the shoulder junction area. It might be very little but it does. I have measured it. If you measure a case after firing and again after sizing it increases. Matt

 

[dkhunt14]

"Click" cases only happen if the base of the chamber is too small and most people who have this problem will have the base polished out a few thou - cuz that problem happens if you use "Bump" dies, or the very common, Wilson sizers & seaters with an arbor press too. There is no difference... neither sizes the base of the case. It is why Paul Bike makes "click dies" (for ~ $150+ each)

There are a lot of accuracy disciplines that do not do things like 100/200 yd bench. PB bench is not the center of the accuracy universe, nor is it the only shooting discipline that runs higher than "normal" pressure.

Much of what the short range bench loading technique evolved from, is not defined by maximum technical accuracy - it is guided my the shooting technique of free recoil and getting off the rounds quickly, in the lull in the wind, and fear of rolling the rifle in the bags from bolt closing torque.

If short range bench rules changed, and shooters were required to use simple tripods (no "joy sticks"), and they were required to actually hold the rifle against their cheek and shoulder, and aim by squeezing the rear bag (Oh my God, Gasp).... you would see reloading techniques and tools change radically in 6 months.

I think current PB bench handloading and shooting style is a case of the tail wagging the dog.

Click happens when the die doesn't touch the base. When shooting at high pressure they will get tight and need sized. It doesnt have to be because the chamber is tight.. it is just a poor match of reamer to die.

You can think want you want but point blank is the ultimate accurate game. Not everybody free recoils, some are bag squeezers. No varmint rifle, sporter or hunting rifle will agg what they do. In 1000 yard BR most hold the guns, but some are free recoil guys. Free recoil is harder because the gun has to track and the bags and guns have to match. It also can be easily most accurate because you are not introducing human error. Matt