284W issue

[earlcurtis67]

I"m having some issues with my 284 and need some advice. I guess my main issue is bolt clicking but no other signs of over pressure, primmers look good, no excessive headspace, no marks on the rim.
Particulars;
284W
Trued 700 L/A
Keieger 8.5T, 30"
Berger 180
H4831SC
Fired case head dia. .4985
Sized case head dia. .4975 ish
Saami chamber, no nicks, burrs etc.
Norma brass
198 rnds fired
The bolt cliks seem to happen around 54.6 gns and above. I havent chronied in a while because velocitys were kind of erratic which I at first blamed my chronograph (alpha chrony) but now I'm wondering.
54.6 is a decent load accuracy wise and doesnt cause clickers every round, but eventually will which would indicate to me Im on the edge. But 54.6 is hardly over charged at least with every thing I've read. At first I thought it was the brass having 8 or 9 fireings on so I changed to new brass and did another OCW test but this time i started at 54.3 and tried to work up but had to stop at 55.2 because I was getting clickers on each round.
So do I have a fast barrell, hot lot of powder, smallish chamber?? I picked up a couple pounds of RL17 a while back to try in case the 4831 didnt work out but I want to know whats causing this problem before i move on. I am not the most experienced at reloading but I have thick skin and want to be better.
Im sure Im leaving some info out so please be paitient. E

 

[FeMan]

I have the same issue in my 284. My cause is the chamber is a tad too small. I had my first reamer made for WW brass and found the Norma and Lapua to be tighter (maybe slightly larger od?). I got a second reamer sized a little larger and it solved my issues. For my old barrel, I got a small-base body die and used that each reload. It took most of the click out.

FWIW, 55.2 grains of H4831 was max in my rifle too with the 180 Hybrids.

 

[ngb1787]

I"m having some issues with my 284 and need some advice. I guess my main issue is bolt clicking but no other signs of over pressure, primmers look good, no excessive headspace, no marks on the rim.
Particulars;
284W
Trued 700 L/A
Keieger 8.5T, 30"
Berger 180
H4831SC
Fired case head dia. .4985
Sized case head dia. .4975 ish
Saami chamber, no nicks, burrs etc.
Norma brass
198 rnds fired
The bolt cliks seem to happen around 54.6 gns and above. I havent chronied in a while because velocitys were kind of erratic which I at first blamed my chronograph (alpha chrony) but now I'm wondering.
54.6 is a decent load accuracy wise and doesnt cause clickers every round, but eventually will which would indicate to me Im on the edge. But 54.6 is hardly over charged at least with every thing I've read. At first I thought it was the brass having 8 or 9 fireings on so I changed to new brass and did another OCW test but this time i started at 54.3 and tried to work up but had to stop at 55.2 because I was getting clickers on each round.
So do I have a fast barrell, hot lot of powder, smallish chamber?? I picked up a couple pounds of RL17 a while back to try in case the 4831 didnt work out but I want to know whats causing this problem before i move on. I am not the most experienced at reloading but I have thick skin and want to be better.
Im sure Im leaving some info out so please be paitient. E

Velocity?

 

[BIG D]

Earl, first question would be speed. How fast are your loads with the beginning clicker loads? Should be 2,800-2,850 for the node. Second would be you claim sammi reamer, if so what is it throated for? If it isn't long throated your pressures will show with less powder with those long bullets. My c.o.a.l is 3.238 from base to tip of 180 hybrid in a .188 free bore chamber. Third thing to check is primary extraction. Look at the front ramping edge of your bolt handle on top of your bolt body where it almost touches the back of your receiver. Now work your bolt slowly upward from the closed position and see if it contacts the ramping area on your receiver. The angled surfaces should contact each other before bolt is open. Sounds like primary extration timing is off. If your action has been trued and lugs squared then your bolt handle should have been retimed. Hopefully this helps.

 

[BIG D]

I also noticed you are using Norma brass. I have heard they are a touch on the fat side unless you used a reamer for Norma

 

[pslater]

Earl, first question would be speed. How fast are your loads with the beginning clicker loads? Should be 2,800-2,850 for the node. Second would be you claim sammi reamer, if so what is it throated for? If it isn't long throated your pressures will show with less powder with those long bullets. My c.o.a.l is 3.238 from base to tip of 180 hybrid in a .188 free bore chamber. Third thing to check is primary extraction. Look at the front ramping edge of your bolt handle on top of your bolt body where it almost touches the back of your receiver. Now work your bolt slowly upward from the closed position and see if it contacts the ramping area on your receiver. The angled surfaces should contact each other before bolt is open. Sounds like primary extration timing is off. If your action has been trued and lugs squared then your bolt handle should have been retimed. Hopefully this helps.

Big D, I'm confused. My 284 is currently throated so that a 180 Hybrid gives me a 3.04 COAL at the lands. I'm looking to have the throat lengthened .18" which should give me a COAL of 3.19, allow .02 of jump to the lands, and a full .284 bearing surface in the neck. The 3.283 you use shows (according to QL) only about .238 of bearing surface in the neck. Am I reading this right?

 

[BIG D]

3.238 is oal which leaves the boat tail junction at neck n shoulder of case. This measurement is without a comparator

 

[pslater]

3.238 is oal which leaves the boat tail junction at neck n shoulder of case. This measurement is without a comparator

Thanks. All my data was done with a comparator which probably explains most of the difference.

 

[earlcurtis67]

Feman; I have a SB die but am concerned it would over work the brass...??
Nick and Big D; average velocity during break in and load development showed an average of 2790fps at 54.6gns of H4831 (chrony was in the shade)The next time I tried this load over a chrony average FPS was 2900 (chrony was in the sun) maybe 15-20 rounds in between chrony testing. I talked to my Smith during the build about extraction and he said he would look at it, to tell the truth I dont know how to check it properly. Ill try to post a pic of the ramp, looks like a ding right on the corner. When we talked about a reamer He said he Had a "sammi" reamer and he would throat the chamber to shoot the 180's
Touching the lands= 2.545 Og
Coal touching = 3.257
Ive been testing at .025 & .010 jumped and .005 jammed

Ill try to get a hold of my smith and ask him about the reamer, and Ill look into checking extraction

 

[FeMan]

I don't think you have to worry about overworking the brass. I have 11 reloads on WW brass and it is going strong. With the Lapua or Norma I would expect you will get 15 to 25 if you don't push it to hard and the "failure" mode (limiting factor) will likely be loose primer pockets, split necks, or head separation from over sizing. The base should outlast everything else by a long shot. I believe the SB body die is less than 1 thousandths smaller than the std. It isn't much and doesn't take much.

The tip on bolt timing is a good one and likely the cause if not a contributor to the problem. Any Rem 700 with a prefix higher than "C" is suspect for this in my experience.

 

[BIG D]

View attachment 1003162 Feman; I have a SB die but am concerned it would over work the brass...??
Nick and Big D; average velocity during break in and load development showed an average of 2790fps at 54.6gns of H4831 (chrony was in the shade)The next time I tried this load over a chrony average FPS was 2900 (chrony was in the sun) maybe 15-20 rounds in between chrony testing. I talked to my Smith during the build about extraction and he said he would look at it, to tell the truth I dont know how to check it properly. Ill try to post a pic of the ramp, looks like a ding right on the corner. When we talked about a reamer He said he Had a "sammi" reamer and he would throat the chamber to shoot the 180's
Touching the lands= 2.545 Og
Coal touching = 3.257
Ive been testing at .025 & .010 jumped and .005 jammed

Ill try to get a hold of my smith and ask him about the reamer, and Ill look into checking extraction

Ok Earl, your on the exact point with the picture you posted. Now put bolt back in gun (unloaded of course) and watch the front edge of that bolt handle as you slowly open it. It should touch and make contact with the back angled edge of your action/receiver. If it doesn't have any contact you have no primary extraction. I'm not sure how many rounds are through this action but being blued/matte finish the area in your picture should be polished some if extraction is correct. Hopefully this clears up what to look for. As far as speeds go it sounds like your in the ballpark. I had this same problem with my first 284 and it was primary extraction. Showed absolutely no pressure signs but click click click no matter what the powder charge was. Had 1/16-1/8" gap between bolt handle and receiver. Smith fixed it free of charge and it's like a Swiss watch now.

 

[earlcurtis67]

What is the fix? Reposition the bolt handle?
This action was a 270 that I bought new in 1989, maybe a hundred rounds or so before it was trued and screwed on the new barrel. E

 

[FeMan]

The bolt handle needs to be relocated and re-brazed to get the extraction/timing correct. By the ding on your handle inb the picture, ity appears the timing on your bolt is off.

 

[BIG D]

Yes. A good smith will no what to look for and have the solution to the problem.

 

[JBO]

IMHO your die is not sizing your brass down far enough, it doesn't take much. Try taking just a body die and resize a piece of brass that has the issue.

 

[earlcurtis67]

Did some measuring just now. The distance between the action and bolt handle in the closed posistion is .010" However when I cycle the bolt it never touches the ejection ramp. The gap between the action ramp and the bolt ramp is about .048"
The ding in the previous picure is from the bolt contacting the action when cycling a new round in the chamber

 

[BIG D]

View attachment 1003241 View attachment 1003242 Did some measuring just now. The distance between the action and bolt handle in the closed posistion is .010" However when I cycle the bolt it never touches the ejection ramp. The gap between the action ramp and the bolt ramp is about .048"
The ding in the previous picure is from the bolt contacting the action when cycling a new round in the chamber

Yep Earl I think that's your clickity click click click right there bud. A good smith can set it correctly for you or send it to someone that can. Sorry for the late reply. Had taxes today.

 

[BIG D]

Also if you get extraction set correctly double check the forward edge of your bolt handle for clearance on your stock. Moving the bolt forward may create contact with handle and stock. Make sure there is clearance. Hopefully this is the fix.

 

[earlcurtis67]

Thanks D, I ordered a Kiff bolt handle yesterday. I'm gonna let my Smith do it and a few other odds and ends along with installing a muzzle brake. I may as well paint the stock while I'm at it
E

 

[DOGCAPPER]

A 284 reamer is available with straighter sides giving more grip and reliving the load on the small head. The name escapes me for now.(along with a lot of other stuff).