6 Dasher & 6 BR in 5R rifling?

[dkhunt14]

@Alex Wheeler

For several years, all the barrels I used were 4-groove, but then in 2012 I chambered two 5R's (a Benchmark and a Bartlien). Both shoot par or better to any 4-groove that I myself have had. Other notes I will make to my 5R's: they both clean out very easily and null copper, and have trended to throat erode a little less and/or not as fast.

Donovan
PS..... here's a 2" at 1000 from the Bartlien 5R (31" HV, .237, 8-T)

View attachment 1000361

Donovan I noticed the same thing in my Broughton 5C's. They all seemed to clean easy and the throats didn't move as quick.

As an example, my buddies Krieger 300 WSM moved a little over .020 in 3 seasons. My Broughton 5C moved .004 in 3 seasons. Both barrels shot the same reamer, the same lot of bullets, same powder, and pretty much same load and round count.

In 2006 I shot my first Broughton 5C. In a 308 Baer it moved .015 with a 300 round season. The 2 previous years I shot the Krieger and they moved around .035 with the same round count. Both rifles same reamer and componets.

I believe this is not a coincidence. Matt

 

[LRPV]

I have had a few "5r's". One problem that I have with most of them is cleaning in that after a number of rounds, they will not spin a cleaning rod with a patch and jag. I have had 3 Bartlein 6mm 5r's. One is a used 243 hunting rifle that I don't really know round count on but it will still spin the rod. One is a 243SLR with supposedly around 500 rounds and it will not even spin a tight bronze brush forward or backward, which usually they will spin in reverse. One Broughton Dasher barrel that came on a heavy gun I bought and it barely looks rifled with a borescope. I have one Krieger 7mm 5r with less than 500rds and it spins a rod just fine.

I worry about ruining the barrel when using any abrasives on these barrels once they quit spinning the rod because your just running over the lands. Is there something I may be missing here?

For what it's worth, I will be buying 4 groove 6mm barrels until it's proven to me that they don't work.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I have had a few "5r's". One problem that I have with most of them is cleaning in that after a number of rounds, they will not spin a cleaning rod with a patch and jag. I have had 3 Bartlein 6mm 5r's. One is a used 243 hunting rifle that I don't really know round count on but it will still spin the rod. One is a 243SLR with supposedly around 500 rounds and it will not even spin a tight bronze brush forward or backward, which usually they will spin in reverse. One Broughton Dasher barrel that came on a heavy gun I bought and it barely looks rifled with a borescope. I have one Krieger 7mm 5r with less than 500rds and it spins a rod just fine.

I worry about ruining the barrel when using any abrasives on these barrels once they quit spinning the rod because your just running over the lands. Is there something I may be missing here?

For what it's worth, I will be buying 4 groove 6mm barrels until it's proven to me that they don't work.

I have no idea what you're doing different than I or anyone else, but I've never seen what you describe nor heard of it. IME, the land height is the same, using the same nominal bore and groove sizes as typical 4 groove standard rifling. Very interesting though.

 

[LRPV]

I know, it's weird. I'm used to having things happen to me that don't happen to anyone else. LOL I don't see it with 4 grooves 236 or 237. I'm not sure what any of these others I've had problems with are, not that it should matter anyway. I use 2" round patches on a 22cal Dewey aluminum jag and 1.75" square on a 22cal Boretech proof positive and they fit plenty tight. I started using the Otis brand bronze brushes and they claim 6mm/25cal and are a very tight fit when new, I can't believe that they won't spin. I've used Tipton, Dewey, Boretech, Montana cleaning rods with the same results.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I'm used to having things happen to me that don't happen to anyone else. LOL

I thought I had a patent on that. Lol!

 

[Cool Tool]

I would love to see the barrel manufactors chime in here an give a really good reason for the reason they make 5r or 5c an on an on because traditionaly I have always seen 4 and 6groove as the most predominant barrel procedures rather curious how much feedback that would come from this question.

 

[lawman29]

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/groove-discussion.3903353/

 

[Cool Tool]

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/groove-discussion.3903353/

Thank you very much not the answers I am looking for but thanks any way.PS by the way good reading interesting to say the least.

 

[LRPV]

I would love to see the barrel manufactors chime in here an give a really good reason for the reason they make 5r or 5c an on an on because traditionaly I have always seen 4 and 6groove as the most predominant barrel procedures rather curious how much feedback that would come from this question.

Because if you build it, new orders will come. All you need is a little internet hype (faster speeds, easier cleaning, no copper fouling) and all of a sudden those 4 and 6 groove barrels are junk, then the phone rings off the hook with new orders. That's a theory anyway.

 

[dkhunt14]

Because if you build it, new orders will come. All you need is a little internet hype (faster speeds, easier cleaning, no copper fouling) and all of a sudden those 4 and 6 groove barrels are junk, then the phone rings off the hook with new orders. That's a theory anyway.

I know Boots Obermeyer has been making them a long time. Way before the Internet. He made some very good shooting barrels for 1000 yard BR. Especially the really big diameter and long barrels. Then they sort of disappeared because you couldn't get one from him. I believe it had to do with a big government contract.

I have never shot a 5R, but have shot a bunch of 5c Broughton. Most have cleaned really easy, without brushing. Most of them have shot very well. The 5C is not round on the bottom like the 5R. I have never ran into what you say about the patch slipping. I use the size jag for the caliber and round patches. I have had a few where I had to make the Jags a hair smaller because it was tight. I have also used different rods including Bore Tech, Dewey and Tipton. Matt

 

[Cool Tool]

Because if you build it, new orders will come. All you need is a little internet hype (faster speeds, easier cleaning, no copper fouling) and all of a sudden those 4 and 6 groove barrels are junk, then the phone rings off the hook with new orders. That's a theory anyway.

Because if you build it, new orders will come. All you need is a little internet hype (faster speeds, easier cleaning, no copper fouling) and all of a sudden those 4 and 6 groove barrels are junk, then the phone rings off the hook with new orders. That's a theory anyway.

That's a real good point young man.

 

[Cool Tool]

I have never seen a 5r barrel that would shoot to the level that 4 grooves are capable of in the 6mm dasher at 1k yards. Rock Creeks are the only exception but they are very different. I am talking 5 shot groups in the 2s at 1k. Id be interested in who is shooting groups like that with their 5r. It happens a lot with 4 grooves. I strongly recommend a 4 groove in the 6mm. The only barrels that I have seen just have to come off because they could not shoot competitively have been krieger or bartlien 5r barrels. Why? Not sure. For most shooting that does not require the absolute highest level of accuracy I think they are fine. I dont have the same opinion in the larger bores. The 7mms, .30s, and .338s seem to shoot great with 5r barrels.

Alex you do a pretty good bit of barreling of peoples actions what method do you use to measure groove dimensions on 5 land an groove barrels if you don't mind.

 

[Cool Tool]

I indicate directly for everything. I have a long stem interapid as well as .0001" indicators. I do not use pins or rods in the bore. So every barrel and groove configuration is pretty interesting. I do use a ton of rock creeks, which are all 5r gain twists. I have have exceptional results with them, but they are almost a polygonal like a glock barrel. A very extreme 5r, quite different than a Bartlien. They are the only 5r I actually like. I do like Broughton barrels too because of the heat treat, but I rarely use button barrels.

Thanks

 

[FrankG]

I would love to see the barrel manufactors chime in here an give a really good reason for the reason they make 5r or 5c an on an on because traditionaly I have always seen 4 and 6groove as the most predominant barrel procedures rather curious how much feedback that would come from this question.

This has been beaten to death but I will post about it again. So bear with me! Let's stick with 6mm for starters.

If a customer calls me and ask for a 13.5 twist 6mm barrel with 5R style rifling for a 6ppc type gun build I tell them flat out I will not make it unless there is a understanding that if it doesn't shoot that I'm not taking it back. If they say I just want to try/experiment etc...then fine. Why? The short jacket 6mm bullets used in ppc type guns have a short bearing surface. Those short jackets I feel the rifling/lands don't bite and drive the bullet good enough. They will shoot high .2xx's to flat .3xx's but nothing smaller than that.

The long jacket 6mm bullets like 105's etc...I don't see a difference in regards to accuracy. For one example I shot a two man team match at a 1k yards like 10 years ago. One rifle still had a Krieger barrel on it from when I worked there and the other rifle had a 5R barrel that we made. Same chamber reamer, same loads, same barrel length etc...as far as velocity goes the 5R barrel was 30fps slower on average but to me when you are with in 100fps that is the individuality of the barrel so that didn't mean anything to me. I've had guys tell me they want 5R rifling because the bullets seal better in the bore and they get 150fps more velocity etc...ummmm O.K. but I don't see it at all. In regards to accuracy there was no difference that I could measure. We took 3rd place in the two man team match as well.

Now other calibers like 7mm, .30cal. etc...this doesn't seem to be a problem. Just in the short jacket 6mm's.

We make more then our fair share of ammunition test barrels. Both accuracy barrels and pressure test barrels. We make barrels for both the gov't, and bullet makers and ammo/bullet makers. Now with me making this comment we are talking about production match type bullets (not someone making custom match bullets at home etc...) also keep in mind the ammo makers/bullet makers have protocol they have to follow. They clean the barrels at set intervals, usually being shot out of a fixture (taking human error out of it) as well as they are normally tested indoors in controlled environments in regards to temperature etc...and also not dealing with wind conditions etc.... again taking variables out of the equation. They've tested both 4 groove and 5R rifled barrels in identical calibers etc...and they have not noticed any difference in regards to accuracy and or barrel life. Again this is information collected from multiple sources. So when I get hard data like this it's hard to ignore.

I've shot 2 groove, 4 groove, 5 groove (conventional style grooves), 5R, 6 groove and 8 groove barrels. With the exception to the 5R rifling and the short jacket 6mm bullets I described earlier....again I see no real world difference in regards to barrel life and or accuracy. Anybody saying differently I will take issue with. A good example is Larry Costa just recently. Won the BR nationals. Guess what. Every barrel he shot had conventional 5 groove rifling. He won more awards in one match then I think anyone else ever has in one match at one event. I could be wrong.

Now other thoughts and comments. There are some rifling profiles I do feel don't help barrel life at all. Some rifling profiles with very thin lands or profiled type lands don't help. There is no meat for the wear. Also just recently a bullet/ammo maker tested polygonal rifling in a pressure test barrel. It was the only change made. Same caliber, chamber etc...it gave up some (not a lot) in terms of velocity. Some say 5R cleans easier then 4 groove etc...the vast majority of my barrels are either 4 groove or 5R and the way I clean my guns I don't really see a difference. From a carbon fouling stand point the 5R might clean a little easier because the patch isn't trying to get down in the corners like in conventional rifling but in regards to copper I don't really see a difference.

I do feel the 5R rifling the lands don't directly oppose one another. I do feel this can help fight bullet failure because it doesn't upset the bullet jacket as much as an even groove type barrel does with saying that though bullets are a variable. Bullets themselves fail because the bullet can have problems with them. Bullet failure is more of a problem for a long range shooter than a short range shooter. I say usually after 300 yards is when it's going to happen. A short range shooter will usually never see a bullet blow up etc...might see accuracy problems but not a bullet failure.

Some say if you want hard core accuracy you want conventional type rifling. A 4 groove, 6 groove, 5 groove (not 5R) etc...to an extent I do believe in this. The lands do the driving. When a shooter asks me questions in regards to which rifling is better usually my first come back is what are you using the gun for? What's the caliber? What bullets you shooting? So keep this in mind.

My 6 Creedmoor has 5R rifling. If I drive the gun right it will give me sub 1/3moa. This isn't a bench gun. My 6 Dasher shoots as good or better. It has a 4 groove barrel on it but what I would use the Dasher for is totally different then what I would use the 6 Creedmoor for.

Also keep in mind all of the variables. Bullets are a variable. They vary from lot to lot and can have a big impact on accuracy and have nothing to do with the barrel. The barrel is quick to be blamed I feel but the bullets a lot of us take for granted. Powder is a variable. The charge/load what one barrel likes could be different from the next barrel or different make of barrel etc...

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

 

[FrankG]

Here is food for thought for ya! Recently a national ranked shooting team asked a bullet maker to guarantee them 1/4moa bullets. The response was no. They make those bullets and test for 1/3moa but cannot guarantee 1/4moa. The type of shooting I'm not going to mention and or the bullet maker etc...what I'm getting at here is it's a wonder how some of these extremely small groups are shot at any distance and the longer the range/distance the more variables that are thrown at the shooter.

You wonder why the short range bench shooters who are at the top. Most of them make they're own bullets. They are trying to take another variable out of the equation.

Later, Frank

 

[Cool Tool]

This has been beaten to death but I will post about it again. So bear with me! Let's stick with 6mm for starters.

If a customer calls me and ask for a 13.5 twist 6mm barrel with 5R style rifling for a 6ppc type gun build I tell them flat out I will not make it unless there is a understanding that if it doesn't shoot that I'm not taking it back. If they say I just want to try/experiment etc...then fine. Why? The short jacket 6mm bullets used in ppc type guns have a short bearing surface. Those short jackets I feel the rifling/lands don't bite and drive the bullet good enough. They will shoot high .2xx's to flat .3xx's but nothing smaller than that.

The long jacket 6mm bullets like 105's etc...I don't see a difference in regards to accuracy. For one example I shot a two man team match at a 1k yards like 10 years ago. One rifle still had a Krieger barrel on it from when I worked there and the other rifle had a 5R barrel that we made. Same chamber reamer, same loads, same barrel length etc...as far as velocity goes the 5R barrel was 30fps slower on average but to me when you are with in 100fps that is the individuality of the barrel so that didn't mean anything to me. I've had guys tell me they want 5R rifling because the bullets seal better in the bore and they get 150fps more velocity etc...ummmm O.K. but I don't see it at all. In regards to accuracy there was no difference that I could measure. We took 3rd place in the two man team match as well.

Now other calibers like 7mm, .30cal. etc...this doesn't seem to be a problem. Just in the short jacket 6mm's.

We make more then our fair share of ammunition test barrels. Both accuracy barrels and pressure test barrels. We make barrels for both the gov't, and bullet makers and ammo/bullet makers. Now with me making this comment we are talking about production match type bullets (not someone making custom match bullets at home etc...) also keep in mind the ammo makers/bullet makers have protocol they have to follow. They clean the barrels at set intervals, usually being shot out of a fixture (taking human error out of it) as well as they are normally tested indoors in controlled environments in regards to temperature etc...and also not dealing with wind conditions etc.... again taking variables out of the equation. They've tested both 4 groove and 5R rifled barrels in identical calibers etc...and they have not noticed any difference in regards to accuracy and or barrel life. Again this is information collected from multiple sources. So when I get hard data like this it's hard to ignore.

I've shot 2 groove, 4 groove, 5 groove (conventional style grooves), 5R, 6 groove and 8 groove barrels. With the exception to the 5R rifling and the short jacket 6mm bullets I described earlier....again I see no real world difference in regards to barrel life and or accuracy. Anybody saying differently I will take issue with. A good example is Larry Costa just recently. Won the BR nationals. Guess what. Every barrel he shot had conventional 5 groove rifling. He won more awards in one match then I think anyone else ever has in one match at one event. I could be wrong.

Now other thoughts and comments. There are some rifling profiles I do feel don't help barrel life at all. Some rifling profiles with very thin lands or profiled type lands don't help. There is no meat for the wear. Also just recently a bullet/ammo maker tested polygonal rifling in a pressure test barrel. It was the only change made. Same caliber, chamber etc...it gave up some (not a lot) in terms of velocity. Some say 5R cleans easier then 4 groove etc...the vast majority of my barrels are either 4 groove or 5R and the way I clean my guns I don't really see a difference. From a carbon fouling stand point the 5R might clean a little easier because the patch isn't trying to get down in the corners like in conventional rifling but in regards to copper I don't really see a difference.

I do feel the 5R rifling the lands don't directly oppose one another. I do feel this can help fight bullet failure because it doesn't upset the bullet jacket as much as an even groove type barrel does with saying that though bullets are a variable. Bullets themselves fail because the bullet can have problems with them. Bullet failure is more of a problem for a long range shooter than a short range shooter. I say usually after 300 yards is when it's going to happen. A short range shooter will usually never see a bullet blow up etc...might see accuracy problems but not a bullet failure.

Some say if you want hard core accuracy you want conventional type rifling. A 4 groove, 6 groove, 5 groove (not 5R) etc...to an extent I do believe in this. The lands do the driving. When a shooter asks me questions in regards to which rifling is better usually my first come back is what are you using the gun for? What's the caliber? What bullets you shooting? So keep this in mind.

My 6 Creedmoor has 5R rifling. If I drive the gun right it will give me sub 1/3moa. This isn't a bench gun. My 6 Dasher shoots as good or better. It has a 4 groove barrel on it but what I would use the Dasher for is totally different then what I would use the 6 Creedmoor for.

Also keep in mind all of the variables. Bullets are a variable. They vary from lot to lot and can have a big impact on accuracy and have nothing to do with the barrel. The barrel is quick to be blamed I feel but the bullets a lot of us take for granted. Powder is a variable. The charge/load what one barrel likes could be different from the next barrel or different make of barrel etc...

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

Thanks for your reply on 5versus 4 and six lands and grooves the whole thing in a nut shell is regardless of what you use it boils down to one thing barrels and killer bullets you will achieve what you need to be competitive as long as you do your part.

 

[FrankG]

Here is a picture of Larry with all his glory. Also note all of the plaques/trophy's under his arm as well. All of the barrels for his 4 guns had 5 groove rifling.

Benchrest Nationals October 2016.

His 4 grand agg. was .2111″ (for 310 rounds fired at 100/200 yards combined for record)

He won the 2 gun, 3 gun and 4 gun

Later, Frank

 

[FrankG]

@FrankG

Frank,

When did you start offering 5 groove "conventional"?

There was a good number of years my mentor had tremendous results running 5 groove "conventional" barrels from Jeff Lawrence in the 1000 yard game. Jeff is no longer in the barrel business however.

Tom

Tom, Not in every caliber but we've done 5 groove conventional quite a bit. Our .22rf barrels are standard with 5 groove but we've also done 4 groove as a standard in those as well. last year for G&E we made a few hundred 5 groove .22rf barrels. They are very pleased with them and ordered more just a couple of weeks ago. It's not a standard offering in every caliber but like anything else there might be a charge to do it and it might not. Like anything else on our website if you don't see it listed doesn't mean we probably have it done it. Always call and ask. Like left hand twist rifling. In most calibers like 6.5mm, .30cal and maybe a couple of others it's no extra charge but we don't show it on our website. Just way to many options to keep up with.

Later, Frank

 

[LRPV]

Frank, do you have the tooling to do 5 groove conventional 6mm barrels or is it going to be an extra charge? I'm willing to try a couple if someone wants to split the set up cost with me.

 

[FrankG]

Frank, do you have the tooling to do 5 groove conventional 6mm barrels or is it going to be an extra charge? I'm willing to try a couple if someone wants to split the set up cost with me.

We'd have to make a tool. Nobody has asked for one as of yet in 6mm. Give me a call at the shop when you get a chance.
262-677-1717

Later, Frank