School me on Bullet seating force tools

[fguffey]

(Or maybe I should just shut up and keep reading)

No, you are at the correct place but I suggest you avoid the trap. Reloaders have an infatuation with neck tension, they do not have a neck tension gage and there is no conversion for tensions to pounds so? beats me why they do not go straight to seating in pounds. There is a seating press that has a hydraulic system to deterring seating effort. AND WOULD"T YOU KNOW IT: The gage reads in pounds of effort, nothing on the gage about tension.

I did take the time to watch a video, there had to be 20 pounds of effort difference between the first bullet seated and the second. I am the fan of all the bullet hold I can get, for me 40+ pounds is a good number, one more time I do not know how many tensions that would be because there is no way to convert tensions to pounds.

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

variability in seating force - especially when excessively high - means. It might be useful if somebody would rig up a way to measure EXTRACTION force to see if it correlates with insertion force.

A reloader can use a bath room scale for seating and pulling effort/force bullets. I have inline seaters and dies that allow for removing bullets out the top.

F. Guffey

 

[dkhunt14]

No, you are at the correct place but I suggest you avoid the trap. Reloaders have an infatuation with neck tension, they do not have a neck tension gage and there is no conversion for tensions to pounds so? beats me why they do not go straight to seating in pounds. There is a seating press that has a hydraulic system to deterring seating effort. AND WOULD"T YOU KNOW IT: The gage reads in pounds of effort, nothing on the gage about tension.

I did take the time to watch a video, there had to be 20 pounds of effort difference between the first bullet seated and the second. I am the fan of all the bullet hold I can get, for me 40+ pounds is a good number, one more time I do not know how many tensions that would be because there is no way to convert tensions to pounds.

F. Guffey

I hate to bust your bubble. We tested a K&M with a Guage and a 21st Century with a Guage. Then we used a load cell and tested to see which was more accurate. They were both pretty close to one another and the numbers worked out to pounds. Matt

 

[memilanuk]

I hate to bust your bubble. We tested a K&M with a Guage and a 21st Century with a Guage. Then we used a load cell and tested to see which was more accurate. They were both pretty close to one another and the numbers worked out to pounds. Matt

Any chance there was a write-up on the testing details and results?

 

[dkhunt14]

Any chance there was a write-up on the testing details and results?

No, we tested it see which one if any was more accurate. My buddy had both and wanted to see if one was better. They both actually tested good. The one was a hair under and the other was a hair over. I can't remember which one though. My buddy being as anal compulsive as he is, even tested the load cell to make sure it was right. Matt

 

[rgmeddn]

I watched that video too. Does it really matter that nobody has produced an equation that equates seating force with neck tension? Isn't it enough that there may be a lot of variability in seating force? Bottom line are these outliers inaccurate down at the target or not, and can we figure anything out at the reloading bench to explain the variability?

 

[dkhunt14]

I watched that video too. Does it really matter that nobody has produced an equation that equates seating force with neck tension? Isn't it enough that there may be a lot of variability in seating force? Bottom line are these outliers inaccurate down at the target or not, and can we figure anything out at the reloading bench to explain the variability?

Yes with a really good 1000 yard BR rifle (Dasher) the difference showed on target. Sometimes worse then others. Matt

 

[fguffey]

I watched that video too. Does it really matter that nobody has produced an equation that equates seating force with neck tension? Isn't it enough that there may be a lot of variability in seating force? Bottom line are these outliers inaccurate down at the target or not, and can we figure anything out at the reloading bench to explain the variability?

I understand using neck tension is a means of immediate forum acceptance; that is liken onto mowing the law for immediate neighborhood acceptance. There is no value placed on neck tension, I would like to be able to have 14 tensions or 30 tensions but at best there is interference fit and I have used something called crush fit when a press was preferred over a sledge hammer.

F. Guffey

 

[M-61]

Quote from fguffey:
"Anyhow, I want the neck of the case to release the bullet...."

Me too.

 

[dmoran]

@fguffey
The word "tension" means "state of being stretched". So when people are talking about "neck tension" we are referring to a measured amount of tension of the neck on the bullet, in inches.

Example:
0.267" = measured neck diameter after sizing, but before seating a bullet
0.269" =measured neck diameter after the bullet is seated
0.002" = the difference, and the amount of measured neck tension

Now fguffey try to comprehend measuring tension in inches and you won't be so confused, and you to can refer to how much you size down the neck in relationship to its stretched measurement of the loaded round.
You may also be the only one who can't comprehend the references simplicity...

Donovan

 

[davidpatton]

I understand using neck tension is a means of immediate forum acceptance; that is liken onto mowing the law for immediate neighborhood acceptance. There is no value placed on neck tension, I would like to be able to have 14 tensions or 30 tensions but at best there is interference fit and I have used something called crush fit when a press was preferred over a sledge hammer.

F. Guffey

I dont know you, but i do know if i was a new member asking a intelligent question and got some smart mouth answer like this i'd probably just disregard everything you say. I believe there is a value placed on neck tension, and have seen its effects on targets at 600 and 1000. If i change from a 267 to a 266 bushing, my load goes to crap. As for the force indicator, the best suggestion i have is try it....It wont be the worst 200 dollars you have ever spent, and you may even like it. Right or wrong, in my personal experience i have had better luck since i started using it, and so have some of my fellow shooters. I sort by like numbers, and for my record target i try to have rounds that seated the same. Its just another step in the process to make sure the bases are covered and that i load the most consistent ammo that i can. I questioned it too before i bought one, the i realized all the guys beating me were using it.

 

[fguffey]

I dont know you, but i do know if i was a new member asking a intelligent question and got some smart mouth answer like this i'd probably just disregard everything you say. I believe there is a value placed on neck tension

Value? $4.00 is a value, 40 miles is a value. 40 pounds is a value but neck tension can not be converted to pounds, feet, or dollars. I have tension gages, all of my tension gages are calibrated to pounds and or deflection in thousandth.

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

As for the force indicator, the best suggestion i have is try it....It wont be the worst 200 dollars you have ever spent, and you may even like it.

I have a force gage, it does not read tension it measures in pounds.

F. Guffey

 

[davidpatton]

val·ue
ˈvalyo͞o/
noun

1. 1.
   the regard that something is held to deserve; the importance, worth, or usefulness of something.
   "your support is of great value"
   synonyms: worth, usefulness, advantage, benefit, gain, profit, good, help, merit, helpfulness, avail;
   importance, significance
   "the value of adequate preparation cannot be understated"

 

[fguffey]

rgmeddn said: ↑

Isn't it enough that there may be a lot of variability in seating force?

Somewhere about page two it is decided there are too many variables in sating force. If he does not think/believe it can not be done, it can not be done.

F. Guffey

 

[memilanuk]

Folks... stop feeding the troll. Please.

 

[davidpatton]

I have a force gage, it does not read tension it measures in pounds.

F. Guffey

THE GAUGE MEASURES SEATING FORCE!!!!! Donovan explained the difference already. They are different measurements. You are correct, there are many variables, and by using the force gauge you can figure them out. Maybe I just wasted my money, but when i changed i started shooting better

 

[davidpatton]

Folks... stop feeding the troll. Please.

I know i shouldn't, but people like this guy get on here and spat off some BS to discourage other shooters from taking productive steps, then he wants to argue with everyone who doesn't agree with his opinion. Obviously the only correct answer is try it and see if it works for you!

 

[dmoran]

@fguffey -
If I ask how much seating force you use? .... would be asking for an amount in pounds or units to the amount of force it takes you to seat your bullets.

If I ask how much neck tension you use? .... would be asking for an amount in inches to the amount you size down the case neck in relationship to the loaded round (as described in the example above).

Two all together separate aspects, both coincidental of case necks and seated bullets in reloading, but serve two separate purposes. Much like a hammer and a saw, both coincidentally being carpenter tools, but serve two separate purposes in carpentry.

It's so simple... which in its self may be what has you so confused !.!.!
Donovan

 

[fguffey]

I know i shouldn't, but people like this guy get on here and spat off some BS to discourage other shooters from taking productive steps, then he wants to argue with everyone who doesn't agree with his opinion. Obviously the only correct answer is try it and see if it works for you!

David Patton, it starts out with neck tension and no gage for measuring neck tension. I understand it sounds cool, same goes for bumping the shoulder. It's cool but when I ask someone "how do you do that?" they fall short like it is my fault. And then there are all of the gages reloaders purchased for measuring case head space and the case does not have head space.

Years ago reloaders with chamber gages goo goggle and 'glicking' about chamber gages. I said if I built one I would build it with a case head protrusion, I would not build it like it was a rip-off of the Wilson case gage; and no one was happy about that. But, I did notice Wilson is now making a gage with a protruding case head and reloaders are ecstatic.

F. Guffey