School me on Bullet seating force tools

[davidpatton]

David Patton, it starts out with neck tension and no gage for measuring neck tension. I understand it sounds cool, same goes for bumping the shoulder. It's cool but when I ask someone "how do you do that?" they fall short like it is my fault. And then there are all of the gages reloaders purchased for measuring case head space and the case does not have head space.

Years ago reloaders with chamber gages goo goggle and 'glicking' about chamber gages. I said if I built one I would build it with a case head protrusion, I would not build it like it was a rip-off of the Wilson case gage; and no one was happy about that. But, I did notice Wilson is now making a gage with a protruding case head and reloaders are ecstatic.

F. Guffey

I understand we are not up to your level. Unfortunately i use all those worthless tools. Have a good evening, this conversation is pointless. The best way to prove your point is show up, set your stuff on the bench, and amaze us.

 

[dkhunt14]

I understand we are not up to your level. Unfortunately i use all those worthless tools. Have a good evening, this conversation is pointless. The best way to prove your point is show up, set your stuff on the bench, and amaze us.

I have asked him to show pics of his groups. I have been patiently waiting to see them. Matt

 

[dmoran]

...it starts out with neck tension and no gage for measuring neck tension. I understand it sounds cool, same goes for bumping the shoulder. It's cool but when I ask someone "how do you do that?" they fall short like it is my fault. And then there are all of the gages reloaders purchased for measuring case head space and the case does not have head space.

Years ago reloaders with chamber gages goo goggle and 'glicking' about chamber gages.......

F. Guffey

​

 

[22BRGUY]

[QUOTE="Alex Wheeler, post: 36911281, member: 1279612" I was loading for a 1k yd match in a hotel room, I had forgotten my brass and was stuck reloading the stuff I had. Seating force was bad, 15-20 lb es. That 10 shot group measured 4.1"[/QUOTE]

Awesome shooting for sure but wonder what the group size would have been if the seating force spread would have been 3-5 lbs. You do a whole lot of things right Alex besides just seating force and that all shows up on target IMHO. Just wondering.
Kindest Regards.

 

[rgmeddn]

22BRGUY, in your quote by Alex Wheeler the "15-20 lb es" caught my eye. It may or may not be the absolute value of bullet seating force that matters, but the variability, or es. Even the rate at which you try to push the bullet in will be reflected in force (f=ma). I wish somebody would pull the bullet out of a few high force seatings and lower force seatings and evaluate everything: neck thickness, diameters of case and bullet, galling of the bullet, difficulty of pulling the bullet out, reseating another bullet to see if it is the problem is reproduced. Maybe it's stiffness of the brass. Maybe asymmetrical chamfering. There have to be root causes of the anomalies. (Even if it is just random, in which case there would be a distribution curve, there would be causes and steps that can be taken to narrow the es and sd, no?)

I'm going to get one of these devices and try to figure something out after I load some rounds, send my fired cases, get my custom dies, and can get outside to shoot this spring.

 

[22BRGUY]

22BRGUY, in your quote by Alex Wheeler the "15-20 lb es" caught my eye. It may or may not be the absolute value of bullet seating force that matters, but the variability, or es. Even the rate at which you try to push the bullet in will be reflected in force (f=ma). I wish somebody would pull the bullet out of a few high force seatings and lower force seatings and evaluate everything: neck thickness, diameters of case and bullet, galling of the bullet, difficulty of pulling the bullet out, reseating another bullet to see if it is the problem is reproduced. Maybe it's stiffness of the brass. Maybe asymmetrical chamfering. There have to be root causes of the anomalies. (Even if it is just random, in which case there would be a distribution curve, there would be causes and steps that can be taken to narrow the es and sd, no?)

I'm going to get one of these devices and try to figure something out after I load some rounds, send my fired cases, get my custom dies, and can get outside to shoot this spring.

Good Point!

 

[Alex Wheeler]

[QUOTE="Alex Wheeler, post: 36911281, member: 1279612" I was loading for a 1k yd match in a hotel room, I had forgotten my brass and was stuck reloading the stuff I had. Seating force was bad, 15-20 lb es. That 10 shot group measured 4.1"

Awesome shooting for sure but wonder what the group size would have been if the seating force spread would have been 3-5 lbs. You do a whole lot of things right Alex besides just seating force and that all shows up on target IMHO. Just wondering.
Kindest Regards.[/QUOTE]

Well, it this case the neck tension itself was extremely uniform. The es, was just friction. I make sure necks are turned to the .0001" . Annealed or not, all kept on the same cycle, burnish the carbon and that pretty much takes care of it. And with that barrel, the gun only shot a couple 10 shot groups under that 4.1"

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Im lucky if all I forget is the brass

 

[6MMsteve]

David Patton, it starts out with neck tension and no gage for measuring neck tension. I understand it sounds cool, same goes for bumping the shoulder. It's cool but when I ask someone "how do you do that?" they fall short like it is my fault. And then there are all of the gages reloaders purchased for measuring case head space and the case does not have head space.

Years ago reloaders with chamber gages goo goggle and 'glicking' about chamber gages. I said if I built one I would build it with a case head protrusion, I would not build it like it was a rip-off of the Wilson case gage; and no one was happy about that. But, I did notice Wilson is now making a gage with a protruding case head and reloaders are ecstatic.

F. Guffey

 

[500Stroker]

Awesome shooting for sure but wonder what the group size would have been if the seating force spread would have been 3-5 lbs. You do a whole lot of things right Alex besides just seating force and that all shows up on target IMHO. Just wondering.
Kindest Regards.

Well, it this case the neck tension itself was extremely uniform. The cases were all as perfect as they could be. The es, was just friction. Which is why seating force is such an unreliable tool. IF the es is caused by neck tension you'll see it on target, if its caused by friction you wont. Thats what I have seen. Since most of the es in seating force is friction, its just not a good tool for me. I make sure necks are turned to the .0001" as perfect as possible. Annealed or not, all kept on the same cycle, burnish the carbon and that pretty much takes care of it. And with that barrel, the gun only shot a couple 10 shot groups under that 4.1"[/QUOTE]
"burnish the carbon" please elaborate.
I know you are speaking of the carbon on the inside of the neck. I am more interested in the process.
Thanks Alex

 

[6MMsteve]

David Patton, it starts out with neck tension and no gage for measuring neck tension. I understand it sounds cool, same goes for bumping the shoulder. It's cool but when I ask someone "how do you do that?" they fall short like it is my fault. And then there are all of the gages reloaders purchased for measuring case head space and the case does not have head space.

Years ago reloaders with chamber gages goo goggle and 'glicking' about chamber gages. I said if I built one I would build it with a case head protrusion, I would not build it like it was a rip-off of the Wilson case gage; and no one was happy about that. But, I did notice Wilson is now making a gage with a protruding case head and reloaders are ecstatic.

F. Guffey

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Well, it this case the neck tension itself was extremely uniform. The cases were all as perfect as they could be. The es, was just friction. Which is why seating force is such an unreliable tool. IF the es is caused by neck tension you'll see it on target, if its caused by friction you wont. Thats what I have seen. Since most of the es in seating force is friction, its just not a good tool for me. I make sure necks are turned to the .0001" as perfect as possible. Annealed or not, all kept on the same cycle, burnish the carbon and that pretty much takes care of it. And with that barrel, the gun only shot a couple 10 shot groups under that 4.1"

"burnish the carbon" please elaborate.
I know you are speaking of the carbon on the inside of the neck. I am more interested in the process.
Thanks Alex[/QUOTE]
Just a few strokes with a stiff nylon brush like iosso.

 

[fguffey]

I understand we are not up to your level. Unfortunately i use all those worthless tools. Have a good evening,

I want to thank your for taking the time, the tools are not worthless. I am the fan of starting a new reloader off with basic tools and a good understanding on how the tools are used. I find too many reloaders or forums that are threatened, if they have some good stuff they have nothing to worry about. And then there are those that believe they can get their way by intimidating, most of those are real shallow on content of character. I am not addressing the choir, bullet hold can be measured in pounds, I am the fan of bullet hold, I do not have a gage that measures tensions but the choir has an infatuation with tensions. I did notice a few are starting to use the term 'bullet grip'; that also sounds awkward, "I use 14 bullet grips with no conversions to pounds or tensions".

Bullet grip goes back to an arsenal in Maryland, seems they were testing the amount of effort required to pull bullets, seems like that was during the time of cold welding. And then the strangest thing; they did not measure bullet grip in tensions they measured it in pounds, seems some of those necks had a good grip because they claimed some of bullets required 600 pounds to pull. And I wonder, when the pressure builds does the neck have time to expand when releasing the bullet or would the neck separated at the shoulder/neck juncture?

F. Guffey

 

[dmoran]

@fguffey

​

 

[memilanuk]

Guys, these quotes seem like an appropriate reminder:

I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig.
You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.

-- George Bernard Shaw

Never argue with an idiot; they'll drag you down
to their level and beat you with experience.

-- unknown

 

[Alex Wheeler]

This was just posted and its cool to see it graphed out.

 

[Richard Coody]

Well first thing is you have to have a rifle/shooter that.can see the difference. Second are.you looking for.another 0.10 reduction in group size? If so it makes a.difference. if not you are wasting time and.money.

I learned a lot about consistent neck tension and the brass prep required to get there after getting my 21st century hydroseater. It is a great.learning tool.

I think consistency is the key to neck tension like most.things in reloading

 

[JimSC]

I thought the comparison between brushed vs unbrushed was interesting. I would like to see a video testing neck lubes