7 Sec delay

[Ringostar]

It was actually pretty easy to determine who's shot was a crossfire. If someone crossfired, the on target velocity reading showed which shot didn't belong. Then the line officers would delete that shot from your string.

 

[Bindi2]

When you have been shooting on E Ts without a delay you will realize what the problems will be with one. Velocity will not be a decider the human scorer must be the decider not the highest score the true score because the wrong score may cause an incorrect adjustment for the next shot resulting in a lower score being recorded because the wrong information was used for the shot. I have scored several times for a shooter who can put 12 shots on target in under one minute. I have also seen him stop mid string and wait till nearly all his time is up before he finishes on a flag that he likes. His wind reading skills must be fairly good as he is ranked No1 in our state. Putting a time delay in would only push his X count to a higher level. I believe ETs allow for faster decisions to go or to stop giving the shooter more control on true shooting skill. No scopes to watch neighbours targets to make adjustments on their shots, you are really on your own. Enjoy the new game plans that are now available.

 

[Earl338]

The 7 sec dely is required to be used if practicable. Any good system should be able to employ a delay. Buy the way I have it on good information that the targets at lodi will not desplay the shot value or the score unte after the 7 sec has pasted Earl

 

[Scott Harris]

The 7 sec dely is required to be used if practicable. Any good system should be able to employ a delay. Buy the way I have it on good information that the targets at lodi will not desplay the shot value or the score unte after the 7 sec has pasted Earl

Thank you Earl! But, I think more is needed. If the intent is to not allow shots during the delay, then the scoring system needs to enforce that also. Right now, shots during the delay are counted. That needs to also be fixed.

 

[3081FTR]

When you have been shooting on E Ts without a delay you will realize what the problems will be with one. Velocity will not be a decider the human scorer must be the decider not the highest score the true score because the wrong score may cause an incorrect adjustment for the next shot resulting in a lower score being recorded because the wrong information was used for the shot. I have scored several times for a shooter who can put 12 shots on target in under one minute. I have also seen him stop mid string and wait till nearly all his time is up before he finishes on a flag that he likes. His wind reading skills must be fairly good as he is ranked No1 in our state. Putting a time delay in would only push his X count to a higher level. I believe ETs allow for faster decisions to go or to stop giving the shooter more control on true shooting skill. No scopes to watch neighbours targets to make adjustments on their shots, you are really on your own. Enjoy the new game plans that are now available.

This is why a delay is needed. It forces the shooter over a wider range of conditions....why else does a slow marker cause so much angst...
On manual targets a paster comes off (so no cossfire, but there has been a delay figuring that out) so the target comes up with two spotters....can you state what the ICFRA ruling for the manual target with two spotters is, as I believe that solves the problem that you suggest is insurmountable.
We have been using ETs for a little while with no delay. All our scores have increased on average....hmmm

 

[lawman29]

We have been using ETs for a little while with no delay. All our scores have increased on average....hmmm

Could this be the start of the "steroid" era....

 

[Bindi2]

Why must a shooter be forced to shoot over a wider time frame. You have just admitted that you cant and no one else should be able to. Two bullet holes on manuals you get the highest score/ read my previous post on this. Scores increase mainly because of faster correlation of data surrounding the shot in a more timely manner. New shooters have learnt to read conditions faster with ETs because of the real time presentation of the data. The only time I shoot on manual targets now is under a team wind coach. I am not a fast shooter by some standards but as has been said slow marking is a tool to upset (unfairly used) shooters who maybe leading. I have also seen other disgusting things done in the pits not in the interest of fair play. A delay is not in the interest of fair and just play. There is a match called Bisely style shoot that if you want to have a slower spread out match.

 

[3081FTR]

Why must a shooter be forced to shoot over a wider time frame. You have just admitted that you cant and no one else should be able to. Two bullet holes on manuals you get the highest score/ read my previous post on this. Scores increase mainly because of faster correlation of data surrounding the shot in a more timely manner. New shooters have learnt to read conditions faster with ETs because of the real time presentation of the data. The only time I shoot on manual targets now is under a team wind coach. I am not a fast shooter by some standards but as has been said slow marking is a tool to upset (unfairly used) shooters who maybe leading. I have also seen other disgusting things done in the pits not in the interest of fair play. A delay is not in the interest of fair and just play. There is a match called Bisely style shoot that if you want to have a slower spread out match.

Because thats how it occurred on manual targets. Shooters are questioning technology needlessly (put in a delay, not do away with technology) changing a fundamental of the sport and its inherent distinction to other forms of shooting such as bench rest.

I assume you are deliberately missing the point, the shooter still doesn't know which shot is theirs - your original point stated that while they might get the higher value initially they could loose points later and it was most important that they got the correct shot. If you read the ICFRA rules the shooter can elect to keep the higher value if a sighter or take another shot, if a shot to count the shooter can take an optional non convertable sighter and thus re-establish their wind estimation, if needed. I believe these rules should still apply and make you're original point moot.

Finally, don't be an egg (you know nothing about me) don't make it personal, keep it on topic and know the rules.

 

[Ringostar]

Try shooting faster than 7 sec sometime. It's not easy. Or in my opinion, very accurate. During a practice day at F-class nationals. I tried to see how quickly I could get a second shot off. I fired a round and without watching for and changes, I immediately ejected and loaded another then fired. It took 6 seconds. I could never shoot that fast, while shooting for score. Also I've had scorekeepers miss shots at times. I always wait to hear them call out the score and shot number, before firing the next round.

 

[Bindi2]

Because thats how it occurred on manual targets. Shooters are questioning technology needlessly (put in a delay, not do away with technology) changing a fundamental of the sport and its inherent distinction to other forms of shooting such as bench rest.

I assume you are deliberately missing the point, the shooter still doesn't know which shot is theirs - your original point stated that while they might get the higher value initially they could loose points later and it was most important that they got the correct shot. If you read the ICFRA rules the shooter can elect to keep the higher value if a sighter or take another shot, if a shot to count the shooter can take an optional non convertable sighter and thus re-establish their wind estimation, if needed. I believe these rules should still apply and make you're original point moot.

Finally, don't be an egg (you know nothing about me) don't make it personal, keep it on topic and know the rules.

I am not missing the point. The scorer if they are doing their job correctly knows whose shot is whose and informs the shooter which is which. Been there done that with the fast shooter. Technology may appeared to have changed the game but then a fast target puller versus a slow puller can run a shooter out of time. I know the rules but have seen shooters gamble on the higher value shot being theirs and crash. If a time delay was put into place you would have to take another shot. I have been on the receiving end of that from the next group same number 10 targets away, 3 shots made a total mess of my time allocation and there is no extra time allowed and that was without a delay. I have watched a shooter have to fire 16 shots to score 10 because of cross fires, how would that go with a delay. The speed at which a shooter shoots is their decision the score is what wins the match not the speed achieving it. One thing that is against fast shooting is 20 shoot matches because of higher barrel wear . F/O being the beast.

 

[dcali]

Why must a shooter be forced to shoot over a wider time frame. You have just admitted that you cant and no one else should be able to. Two bullet holes on manuals you get the highest score/ read my previous post on this. Scores increase mainly because of faster correlation of data surrounding the shot in a more timely manner. New shooters have learnt to read conditions faster with ETs because of the real time presentation of the data. The only time I shoot on manual targets now is under a team wind coach. I am not a fast shooter by some standards but as has been said slow marking is a tool to upset (unfairly used) shooters who maybe leading. I have also seen other disgusting things done in the pits not in the interest of fair play. A delay is not in the interest of fair and just play. There is a match called Bisely style shoot that if you want to have a slower spread out match.

If everyone has the same rules, it's fair. The question is what sort of sport do we want? Do we want one where wind reading is deliberate and required for every shot, or do we want free recoil open guns with 3 ports where you don't even have to look through the scope while you're feeding rounds in as fast as you can to catch a wind condition. And trust me, you can do it a hell of a lot faster than 6 seconds. Watch some benchrest guys with heavy guns - they can put out a shot every 2-3 seconds or so. If that's permitted, the gear will change to facilitate something approaching that. 22 pounds is plenty of weight to play with. Do we really want a sport where the gear is optimized to crank rounds out before the wind changes?

It fundamentally changes the nature of the game, turning it into much more an equipment contest. F Class is high power, and its tradition is long with a definite spirit to the game. How many military benchrest teams are there?

If all we're doing is shooting benchrest for score on the ground, what the heck is the point? If that's what F Class turns into, I'll be shooting a lot more sling. Benchrest has already got benchrest nailed. It's fun for what it is, but it sure as heck isn't high power.

 

[Keith Glasscock]

My only concern in any of this is "equal" target timing for each shooter.

I suggested the 7 second delay at first as a means of keeping the spirit of the game. F-class has been a wind accommodating contest, not wind reading with manual targets and quickish pullers.

After making the suggestion, I did a little research with a stopwatch and video camera. Timing the time between the dirt disturbance on the berm until the target was displayed averaged 12 seconds over most of the matches I attended last year. I average 9 seconds when my shooter isn't making me do jazzercise to mark the shots. I've had one or two that regularly took 20 plus seconds to mark each and every shot. Lastly, despite my insistence that missing the spotter is my responsibility, I've tagged several spindles. Most cost anywhere from 25 - 120 seconds to fix.

I agree with most of my F class brethren that a mandatory delay with no information is appropriate and that the target system should simulate a manually operated target in that any shot fired by the assigned shooter during the "down" period should be counted as a miss.

I think everyone should realize that the 7 seconds we are talking about is far faster than the majority of manual target service one will receive in matches.

 

[Berger.Fan222]

If everyone has the same rules, it's fair. The question is what sort of sport do we want? Do we want one where wind reading is deliberate and required for every shot, or do we want free recoil open guns with 3 ports where you don't even have to look through the scope while you're feeding rounds in as fast as you can to catch a wind condition. And trust me, you can do it a hell of a lot faster than 6 seconds. Watch some benchrest guys with heavy guns - they can put out a shot every 2-3 seconds or so. If that's permitted, the gear will change to facilitate something approaching that. 22 pounds is plenty of weight to play with. Do we really want a sport where the gear is optimized to crank rounds out before the wind changes?

It fundamentally changes the nature of the game, turning it into much more an equipment contest. F Class is high power, and its tradition is long with a definite spirit to the game. How many military benchrest teams are there?

If all we're doing is shooting benchrest for score on the ground, what the heck is the point? If that's what F Class turns into, I'll be shooting a lot more sling. Benchrest has already got benchrest nailed. It's fun for what it is, but it sure as heck isn't high power.

Don't forget that local organizers and match directors can always implement rules not required by the NRA to address these concerns. It need not be in the NRA rulebook to be implemented at matches where it becomes a problem.

I prefer fewer rules coming down from the top and greater local control to better meet the needs and issues and preferences at the local level.

 

[Highpower-FClass]

Don't forget that local organizers and match directors can always implement rules not required by the NRA to address these concerns. It need not be in the NRA rulebook to be implemented at matches where it becomes a problem.

I prefer fewer rules coming down from the top and greater local control to better meet the needs and issues and preferences at the local level.

In order for national records to be meaningful there needs to be a common set of rules that creates a somewhat even playingfield. If some competitions allow for e-targets with immediate scoring and POI, while others are limited by the inherent delay of manually pulled targets then that is no longer a level playingfield in my opinion.

This is one consideration which I think is important. Another is the spirit of the game. As Damoncali pointed out above, F-Class is currently a sport where most competitions are won by individuals who can read and adapt to conditions over a period of time. To enable 'machine-gunning' of rounds would would change the game substantially to where reading conditions becomes less important than the ability to shoot fast. This would change what F-class is and I for one like for F-class to remain a sport that awards ability to read conditions (terrible as I am in doing so). I also agree with Keith that 7 seconds is on the low end. I'd be all for a mandatory delay of 10 - 12 seconds. It would simulate what I would consider 'good pit service'.

 

[Berger.Fan222]

In order for national records to be meaningful there needs to be a common set of rules that creates a somewhat even playingfield.

Most national records are set on dead still days at registered matches. The fact that wind is different everywhere makes the playing fields inherently uneven with regards to national records.

I prefer to see fewer rules generally, and especially fewer rules tailored to MA levels and above at the expense of broader participation at the local level. The more hoops you create that create additional burdens for electronic targets (program such and such a delay for F-Class, must have visible scoring rings, etc.) the fewer matches you are going to have.

If you really need to raise the bar for concern of national records, so it for registered tourneys, but not approved. That way facilities can host approved matches without jumping through the programming hoops.

 

[Bindi2]

The ET is never in the pit therefore it can and is shot on all the time. Putting a delay on the system to make it similar to manual wont stop people shooting it. The person whose target is being cross fired on is being penalized more than the cross firer. The people who speed shoot and do it well have better condition reading skills than most others period. The wind is only part of the skill, mirage and rifle to gear setup not counting two handed operation to shoot. The rules clearly stop BR rail guns so to the few who can and do achieve the No1 spot are clearly worthy of it. Speed shooters don't always win their train wrecks are big.
I don't believe sour grapes or cutting tall poppies by rule changes is a good path way for our sport. ETs have changed the game plan within the rules but it is the shooters choice and capabilities on which way is the best or most enjoyable for them. Good rules allow innovation bad rules stifle the sport. Sling shooting is dying here because it is stifled in comparison to F/C and is much harder to learn.

 

[dcali]

Most national records are set on dead still days at registered matches. The fact that wind is different everywhere makes the playing fields inherently uneven with regards to national records.

I prefer to see fewer rules generally, and especially fewer rules tailored to MA levels and above at the expense of broader participation at the local level. The more hoops you create that create additional burdens for electronic targets (program such and such a delay for F-Class, must have visible scoring rings, etc.) the fewer matches you are going to have.

If you really need to raise the bar for concern of national records, so it for registered tourneys, but not approved. That way facilities can host approved matches without jumping through the programming hoops.

This is true. But you can't count on calm wind, so you have to prepare yourself and your gear for a 10 minute-ish 20 shot string and wind reading. If the rules allow you to shoot as fast as you can, that fundamentally changes the approach - your gear will change, and your tactics will change. That really changes the whole sport. Any national rules ought to at least get us all on the same page. You should not need two different rifles to compete at different ranges just because one has e targets.

I would take the point of view that it's incumbent on the target manufacturers to meet our needs, not the other way around. I get that these systems are deceptively complex and adding more increases cost. I write software for a living, so I get it. But if the targets don't work to enhance the experience and keep within the spirit of High Power Rifle (F Class), then we ought not to be using them at all in my view.

 

[JohnKielly]

But if the targets don't work to enhance the experience and keep within the spirit of High Power Rifle (F Class), then we ought not to be using them at all in my view.

So are you suggesting that they're programmed with a random algorithm so some shooters get prompt, accurate marking & some get annoying delays and obviously erroneous values so they equate with the level of skill & accuracy of pullers you might come across.

 

[dcali]

So are you suggesting that they're programmed with a random algorithm so some shooters get prompt, accurate marking & some get annoying delays and obviously erroneous values so they equate with the level of skill & accuracy of pullers you might come across.

I wouldn't be against it How about random delays? This is about the soul of the game. How much of that is bitching because Greg Taylor shot two spindles in a row when I was pulling his target, obliterating the already failing X ring? Can an e target do that?

In all seriousness, I don't get the big deal with a 10-ish second delay before you're allowed to shoot again. Make the screen flash red every shot so that you can see it register out of the corner of your eye even if you're looking through a scope. If there wasn't a shot, it was a cross fire. You sort out what happened. It's not that hard, and exactly what we do now.

Two nearly simultaneous shots? Put them both up along with a huge banner on the screen saying "TWO SHOTS FIRED", and follow the existing rules for two holes. Fire before the delay is up? Count it as a miss. Or don't count it at all. It really doesn't matter. What matters is that we have *slow* fire, long range prone rifle shooting from a supported position. That is what F class is all about. If we want to machine gun, make a rapid stage! (I'm serious - why not a rapid fire 300 yard stage at midrange matches? That would be fun).

Any thing I'm missing?

You can change the details, but you get my point. The software needs to bend to what high power is. High power doesn't need to bend to what the software *can* do. I hate the pits as much as the next guy, and although I don't think our club will have e targets anytime soon, I'm not against them. I just think they ought to work to make the game easier to administer, not to change the way it is shot. The way it's shot works now. Why mess with it?

 

[Zilla]

...
You can change the details, but you get my point. The software needs to bend to what high power is. High power doesn't need to bend to what the software *can* do. I hate the pits as much as the next guy, and although I don't think our club will have e targets anytime soon, I'm not against them. I just think they ought to work to make the game easier to administer, not to change the way it is shot. The way it's shot works now. Why mess with it?

^^^ This.