Berger 168gr VLD Lot to Lot HUGE deference

[Higgsjunk]

Please check out my video and comment. Base to ojive measurements

 

[Terry]

It's not unusual for all the measurements and weight to differ from lot to lot.

 

[RonAKA]

I recall that Berger claims to produce all bullets from one lot from a single die. However, when you change lots, then the bullets may be coming from a different die. And in addition the die must wear.

 

[yukonal]

I shoot the 168 Hunting VLD's also. I've seen between .001 and .005, but NEVER .015" difference from lot to lot. That's CRAZY!

That's why I always check my first seated bullet from a new lot, after seating on a charged case.

 

[boltfluter]

Seems excessive to me. Hopefully Barefoot 65 will see this and chime in. I would guess that the bullets came from 2 different dies.

Paul

www.boltfluting.com

 

[dkhunt14]

I have seen .030 or more from different lots. Every time you change a lot of jackets or amount of lube the bullet changes. .015 is not that bad. Also dies wear, a lot a year from now will be different then the one they make today. Matt

 

[Zero333]

This is normal, especially if the lots are not close to each other.

Thus why serious competitors buy a few thousand of the same lot.

 

[Ned Ludd]

Totally normal for Berger bullets between lots, and sometimes even from short to long within the same lot.

 

[DaveTooley]

Everyone needs to make bullets at some point in their life to understand all the nuances that go into the setup and production of bullets. Let's say Berger makes a run of 168's. That may be 200,000 or it may be 2,000,000 bullets. Tooling does not last forever. Die wear and much more frequently the BT punch for the point up die has to be replaced. There are +- tolerances on anything that's made. Every tooling change, every time the dies are setup for a production run is slightly different from the last lot. In particular the point up die is adjusted to guarantee ejection of the pointed bullet 100% of the time. It doesn't matter what the last lot measured.

 

[dkhunt14]

Everyone needs to make bullets at some point in their life to understand all the nuances that go into the setup and production of bullets. Let's say Berger makes a run of 168's. That may be 200,000 or it may be 2,000,000 bullets. Tooling does not last forever. Die wear and much more frequently the BT punch for the point up die has to be replaced. There are +- tolerances on anything that's made. Every tooling change, every time the dies are setup for a production run is slightly different from the last lot. In particular the point up die is adjusted to guarantee ejection of the pointed bullet 100% of the time. It doesn't matter what the last lot measured.

Well said Dave. Most the time you just need to set your seating different to get them to shoot. Matt

 

[Higgsjunk]

Thanks to all for the input. The seating depth can be adjusted with no problem. I was just interested if that much difference would make the bullet fly any different at long range. I'm certainly glad I'm not the guy in charge of production.

 

[JohnKielly]

Well said Dave. Most the time you just need to set your seating different to get them to shoot. Matt

Why's that? If the ogive form is the same, your seater is going to set them the same distance from the lands.

 

[dkhunt14]

Why's that? If the ogive form is the same, your seater is going to set them the same distance from the lands.

Most the time the shorter ones are fatter. They don't seat the same to the lands of the gun. I shoot them in the lands and go by the marks on the bullet. Matt

 

[DaveTooley]

Why's that? If the ogive form is the same, your seater is going to set them the same distance from the lands.

When you make bullets in the quantities we're talking about the point up die does wear. It wears over a longer time span for boutique bullet makers as the bullet count gets higher. The first place that wears is the intersection of the cylindrical body and the ogive. As that wears the land contact point, in relation to the the rest of the ogive, will move forward. What if they use the same ogive on several different bullet weights. I would use the same point up die and make adjustments for the changes in bullet length. At some point a decision will be made to replace the die because of wear. Then the cycle starts over again. I've seen tally cards attached to presses where they were making a 4,000,000 run. Does anyone expect bullet #1 to be the same as bullet #4 million?
Maybe George is watching this and will join in.

 

[Jammer Six]

Everyone needs to make bullets at some point in their life to understand all the nuances that go into the setup and production of bullets.

That may be, but it's not the variable that interests me.

I may not understand "...all the nuances that go into the setup and production of bullets." but I understand this: I give you money, you give me bullets that are what you say they are.

You don't understand my business. But I don't ask you to. I just ask that your check clears. If I can't deliver what I tell you can, when I tell you I can deliver it, I raise my price until I can.

Rather than make excuses, I suggest you start stating what you're really prepared to deliver, rather than trying to educate us on your business. I'd have a lot more respect for a manufacturer that stated his/her tolerances up front rather than making excuses for the range of measurements that his/her customers discovered after the fact.

Because I'm not particularly interested in being in your business.

 

[dmoran]

^^^^^

​

 

[dkhunt14]

That may be, but it's not the variable that interests me.

I may not understand "...all the nuances that go into the setup and production of bullets." but I understand this: I give you money, you give me bullets that are what you say they are.

You don't understand my business. But I don't ask you to. I just ask that your check clears. If I can't deliver what I tell you can, when I tell you I can deliver it, I raise my price until I can.

Rather than make excuses, I suggest you start stating what you're really prepared to deliver, rather than trying to educate us on your business. I'd have a lot more respect for a manufacturer that stated his/her tolerances up front rather than making excuses for the range of measurements that his/her customers discovered after the fact.

Because I'm not particularly interested in being in your business.

Jammer you need to ease up and not drink all that Kool aide. Maybe you need to go see a bullet maker make some bullets. It is a very touchy thing. Even the first few bullets made by hand with custom dies need thrown out because they won't be the same. It is so technical that it is hard to make good bullets even with the best of stuff. Lube, temperature, cleaning of jackets, cleaning of cores and a bunch of other things come into play. It is pretty obvious you don't know much about bullets. If you saw the process you would realize they come out pretty good. Matt

 

[KMart]

If your older lot was made a couple of years ago or so, you may find a large difference. Berger did a design change and the measurements changed. I first noticed the change with lot 7591.
There is a discussion thread on here where Berger gave the cut off point where the newer design took over.

 

[Jammer Six]

If you saw the process you would realize they come out pretty good.

I'm not complaining about the bullets. I can't stand excuses.

 

[barefooter56]

I recall that Berger claims to produce all bullets from one lot from a single die. However, when you change lots, then the bullets may be coming from a different die. And in addition the die must wear.

Sorry guys. We were off the week after Christmas and have been "digging" out ever since
We use only the highest quality copper and lead available to eliminate impurities or other material issues. Our material vendors have been in their industry for decades. We have regular meetings at their facility and ours to refresh our mutual understanding of our highest material quality requirements.

Our bullet weight tolerances are listed below. The actual results are usually tighter than these tolerances allow:

• 17 Cal to 30 Cal: +/- 0.2 gr
• 338 Cal: +/- 0.3 gr

Our bullet base to ogive tolerances are listed below. It is important to note that measuring this dimension is difficult as the point of contact is a thin and rounded surface. If you find measurements greater than the tolerances listed below please measure the same 10 bullets several times to confirm that your measuring device is reliable and repeatable (many on the market are not). We use a specially developed process which includes custom made gauges to ensure reliable and repeatable measurements. Most reports of bullets outside this tolerance are found to be the result of how they are measured:

• 20 gr to 115 gr: 0.003 ES
• 120 gr to 210 gr: 0.005 ES

All jackets, cores and bullets within a given lot are made with one die to guarantee consistency.

Each bullet is made on a die that is designated for that bullet. This die is set aside and used again for all lots until this one die wears out.

All tooling is precision made using dimensional tolerances in the .00005. Using precision-made tooling is an absolute requirement. The companies who make our tooling are specifically in the precision tooling business. We meet with them regularly to communicate our tooling needs and special projects. Those who understand precision tool making know that these things are possible but not without deliberate effort and experience.
Dave Tooley, John Kielly and gstaylorg posts are spot on. BUT if you have a problem call us ! We will take care of you!
Take care,