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What happens to you when you don't have a FFL

Had a similar example down here in west palm bch , Florida. A gunshow regular did 6 yrs in fed pen for selling without licenses . When I first saw him , I was set up at my annual gun show , I thought he had moved , he moved all right , to a small cell , 6 yrs . Needless to say that was my last gun show . Now all transactions are done thru a ffl .
 
If you're not buy/sell/trading in firearms or modifying/repairing firearms on a commercial basis, you shouldn't need to be FFL. Just selling "parts', as long as it's not the serial numbered part, doesn't require licensing. That's not to say that ITAR might not apply, though. I wonder what the article in the link hasn't reported about this case.
 
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I agree with what shortgrass said. If someone is selling only parts it's not against the law, selling serialized receivers is another story. There has to be more to the story if they arrested the guy.
 
Wirelessguy2005 said:
I agree with what shortgrass said. If someone is selling only parts it's not against the law, selling serialized receivers is another story. There has to be more to the story if they arrested the guy.
Click to expand...
I think there is only one . --- what you did was in violation of the law.
That is when the lawyers win .
Simple answer it to know the law before you do it .
Same with ITRA .
Happy New Year Larry
 
People bring lower receiver they bought and went through their own back ground check to you. You assemble the uppers, fire control parts, stocks, etc. You are a manufacturer. My bet is this guy was doing just that without a manufacturers license.

In Revenue Ruling 55
-
342 (C.B. 1955
-
1, 562), ATF’s predecessor agency interpreted the meaning of the
terms “manufacturer” and “dealer” for the purpose of firearms licensing under the
Federal Firearms Act,
the precursor statute to the GCA.
It was determined that a licensed dealer could assemble firearms from
component parts on an individual basis, but could not engage in the business of assembling firearms from
component parts in quant
ity lots for purposes of sale or distribution without a manufacturer’s
license.
Since then, ATF has similarly and consistently interpreted the term “manufacturer” under the
GCA to mean any person who engages in the business of making firearms, by casting,
assembly,
alteration, or otherwise, for the purpose of sale or distribution.
Such persons must have a manufacturer’s
license under the GCA, maintain permanent records of manufacture, and submit annual manufacturing
reports.
The Revenue Ruling did not ad
dress whether dealer
-
gunsmiths who engage in the business of
repairing, modifying, embellishing, refurbishing, or installing parts in or on firearms for, or on behalf of
an importer or manufacturer are engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms requ
iring a
manufacturer’s license.
 
hogpatrol said:
People bring lower receiver they bought and went through their own back ground check to you. You assemble the uppers, fire control parts, stocks, etc. You are a manufacturer. My bet is this guy was doing just that without a manufacturers license.

In Revenue Ruling 55
-
342 (C.B. 1955
-
1, 562), ATF’s predecessor agency interpreted the meaning of the
terms “manufacturer” and “dealer” for the purpose of firearms licensing under the
Federal Firearms Act,
the precursor statute to the GCA.
It was determined that a licensed dealer could assemble firearms from
component parts on an individual basis, but could not engage in the business of assembling firearms from
component parts in quant
ity lots for purposes of sale or distribution without a manufacturer’s
license.
Since then, ATF has similarly and consistently interpreted the term “manufacturer” under the
GCA to mean any person who engages in the business of making firearms, by casting,
assembly,
alteration, or otherwise, for the purpose of sale or distribution.
Such persons must have a manufacturer’s
license under the GCA, maintain permanent records of manufacture, and submit annual manufacturing
reports.
The Revenue Ruling did not ad
dress whether dealer
-
gunsmiths who engage in the business of
repairing, modifying, embellishing, refurbishing, or installing parts in or on firearms for, or on behalf of
an importer or manufacturer are engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms requ
iring a
manufacturer’s license.
Click to expand...
Also I would think that the ATRA. Regulations would apply .
Happy New Year. Larry
 
hogpatrol said:
People bring lower receiver they bought and went through their own back ground check to you. You assemble the uppers, fire control parts, stocks, etc. You are a manufacturer. My bet is this guy was doing just that without a manufacturers license.

In Revenue Ruling 55
-
342 (C.B. 1955
-
1, 562), ATF’s predecessor agency interpreted the meaning of the
terms “manufacturer” and “dealer” for the purpose of firearms licensing under the
Federal Firearms Act,
the precursor statute to the GCA.
It was determined that a licensed dealer could assemble firearms from
component parts on an individual basis, but could not engage in the business of assembling firearms from
component parts in quant
ity lots for purposes of sale or distribution without a manufacturer’s
license.
Since then, ATF has similarly and consistently interpreted the term “manufacturer” under the
GCA to mean any person who engages in the business of making firearms, by casting,
assembly,
alteration, or otherwise, for the purpose of sale or distribution.
Such persons must have a manufacturer’s
license under the GCA, maintain permanent records of manufacture, and submit annual manufacturing
reports.
The Revenue Ruling did not ad
dress whether dealer
-
gunsmiths who engage in the business of
repairing, modifying, embellishing, refurbishing, or installing parts in or on firearms for, or on behalf of
an importer or manufacturer are engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms requ
iring a
manufacturer’s license.
Click to expand...
Key words here, "for the purpose of sale or distribution". If a customer brings you a receiver that he owns and you use that receiver to assemble a complete firearm, and then return it to the owner (of that particular receiver), the owner is the manufacture. All you did is considered "a gunsmithing task", as the complete firearm is not "for sale or distribution" by you (that did the assembly). It is not manufacturing by ATFE definition. IF YOU own the receiver (a Savage action, Rem. 700 action, a AR15 lower, a Caspian 1911 frame, etc.) and assemble it into a complete firearm and then offer it for sale, you are the manufacture by ATFE definition. ITAR "Guidance" says; 1.a) Occasional assembly of firearms parts and kits that do not require cutting, drilling, or machining ; is not considered manufacturing. Confused yet? The definitions by ATFE and ITAR are completely opposite . Like I said earlier, there's more to this than is stated in the article in the link.
 
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shortgrass said:
Key words here, "for the purpose of sale or distribution". If a customer brings you a receiver that he owns and you use that receiver to assemble a complete firearm, and then return it to the owner (of that particular receiver), the owner is the manufacture. All you did is considered "a gunsmithing task", as the complete firearm is not "for sale or distribution" by you (that did the assembly). It is not manufacturing by ATFE definition. IF YOU own the receiver (a Savage action, Rem. 700 action, a AR15 lower, a Caspian 1911 frame, etc.) and assemble it into a complete firearm and then offer it for sale, you are the manufacture by ATFE definition. ITAR "Guidance" says; 1.a) Occasional assembly of firearms parts and kits that do not require cutting, drilling, or machining ; is not considered manufacturing. Confused yet? The definitions by ATFE and ITAR are completely opposite .
Click to expand...
I know if you have a proper ATFE license and pay your ITRA fee and u do the proper paperwork you good to go.
Anything less is your choice .
Happy New Year. Larry
 
I have seen the same people at GSs for yrs that are not FFL
holders. They have several tables w/signs "sale from private collection". Sometimes ATF is in the building. Go figure. LDS
 
I wonder if he was taking in and keeping lowers to assemble them? I thought that to leave it with a business they had to have an FFL? Working while you wait is legal.
 
LarryDScott said:
I have seen the same people at GSs for yrs that are not FFL
holders. They have several tables w/signs "sale from private collection". Sometimes ATF is in the building. Go figure. LDS
Click to expand...



I have a non licensed friend who has sold and bought from gun shows for many years. He tells me ATF guys are constantly watching for non licensed dealers who buy a gun from a patron, then turn around and put it up for sale on their table a few minutes later. The seller gets busted when the ATF sees this happen. If he buys a gun he will take it home and sell it at another GS the next week.

The media calls this "the gun show loophole"
 
The "gun show loop hole" is that anyone, honest citizen to convicted felon, can buy from an unlicensed gun show table renter without a background check, most times no receipt either. Some of those guys bring in more money at the shows than licensed dealers do. And it's all profit , as they don't have the overhead a real business does. Of course they can't buy from a distributer or wholesaler, just used from individuals. They call it their 'hobby', or they're 'collectors. They're on-line at the auction sites, too. They must not be able to make up their minds what they want in their 'collections', because they are buying and selling most every weekend. Any honest citizen should be able to sell his personal property, up until the point he violates the law. Once he becomes "engaged in the business", as he is buying and selling to make a profit, and he is not licensed..........
 
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You can bet one thing, these unlicensed persons
who have several tables/guns and sell regularly,
are not selling at break-even or at a loss. LDS
 
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