The biggest bang for the Buck is a Tunner . Larry
One Extra Thing Beyond Basics to Improve Accuracy
- Thread starter BigSky
- Start date
Toolbreaker
Gold $$ Contributor
If primarily for hunting, I'd say time spent shooting in field conditions. IMO, increasing one's accuracy and consistency in the field is much more challenging than it is on a firing line, just from the fact of the ever-changing terrain, environment and shooting positions.
MarkS
Silver $$ Contributor
BigSky,
Like you said, I F/L size with a bushing die, with 0.002" shoulder bump, ever time (I use a Harrell custom die that matches my chamber for 6 BR )
http://harrellsprec.com/index.php/categories/reloading-dies . Then seat with a Wilson seater, using a arbor press.
I also use Harrell powder measure. All this is a great setup for loading at the range. The Wilson die seater is the best way to go for accuracy. At the range, I can use a Wilson set (neck size and seater), for working up new loads, then back to bumping after, I find the load I want.
Mark Schronce
Lapua brass and the best bullets available (Berger or Sierra) were responsible for the biggest accuracy improvements in my experiences.
Brians356
Silver $$ Contributor
I wonder if you ever read "Secrets Of The Houston Warehouse"? If you haven't, I suspect you will feel gratified:
http://www.angelfire.com/ma3/max357/houston.html
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Fast14riot
Gold $$ Contributor
Lol, I wonder how many people cut their barrels to 21-3/4" to try and get those groups! Good and interesting read though. Been a while since I've seen that article mentioned...
Others seem to agree. I anneal every time with a precision machine which gives me the consistency I think is important when it comes to proper annealing. I believe annealing is an important part of constant neck tension which, I believe, pays off at the target. However, proving it is not easy.
Bryan Litz tested several common reloading procedures in his latest book. Annealing, he concluded, doesn't help much, if at all. His data showed a tiny improvement in SD, particularly with the .223, but not enough to be significant. I'm not yet convinced that he's right, but I'm not willing to burn up the several hundred rounds it would take to prove him wrong.
What's more interesting is that Mr. Litz showed that flash-hole-deburring provides a significant improvement in SD, way more significant than annealing. In other words, if you have a choice of deburring or annealing, you're better off deburring the flash holes. I have personal doubts that deburring the flash hole is more important than annealing, but that's what his tests show.
Anyway, I do all the normal tedious stuff like weighing bullets, weighing cases, neck turning, deburring flash holes, normalizing primer pockets, annealing, etc etc etc. I draw the line at measuring the water capacity of each and every case and I don't weigh my primers.
I believe that testing a single step is very difficult because we're hoping for a tiny improvement in performance which is usually tested by firing a human-held gun which launches a bullet through the air. The "noise" associated with such data gathering masks, or at least distorts, any potential improvement associated with a single parameter. But I believe that taken together they add up and the whole enchilada makes the difference between winning and losing. Or at least I hope so, otherwise I've been wasting a lot of time.
I don't care what Mr Litz says about ES or SD. Some of the best spreads have been the worst vertical groups at 1000 yards. Where the annealing helped the most was scoring. It helped hold the 10 ring way better on the up and down. It helped slightly on groups but the scoring was the biggest gain.
One year I shot both light and heavy with two really accurate rifles. I shot 5 matches with each gun without annealing and 5 matches with. Them10 targets at the end of the year of each clearly showed a winner. Matt
One year I shot both light and heavy with two really accurate rifles. I shot 5 matches with each gun without annealing and 5 matches with. Them10 targets at the end of the year of each clearly showed a winner. Matt
"....what is the one thing to add beyond basics??...."
I would say some type of tooling to verify headspace of the resized cases. I like mine to match the chamber, but this is a tricky thing because annealing really is the key to consistency. By that I mean cases will show a different headspace length {we are talking ones that are measured off the shoulder} depending upon the hardness/softness of the brass. Without a way to measure this you wont really know how they are coming out. You can set the resize die to size some cases to dead on zero, switch to a different batch or reload the first ones several times and see a different length...all without ever moving the die. That is the problem...with the measuring device you can reset the die, but that doesn't help you with neck tension.
As an alternate I would say a borescope. Without one you are guessing whether or not your barrel is in fact clean. Can you get a bore clean without a scope??? Certainly, the scope doesn't do the cleaning, no argument there...can you really know it is for certain clean without one??? Zero chance. Why is a clean bore so important??? I would like to have back the time in dollars I have spent and seen spent chasing a ghost that was nothing more than copper in the bore. Heck, I'd just like to have the money I have seen wasted on new scopes because of copper fouling in the bore. Bullets all over the target...must be the scope!!!
I would say some type of tooling to verify headspace of the resized cases. I like mine to match the chamber, but this is a tricky thing because annealing really is the key to consistency. By that I mean cases will show a different headspace length {we are talking ones that are measured off the shoulder} depending upon the hardness/softness of the brass. Without a way to measure this you wont really know how they are coming out. You can set the resize die to size some cases to dead on zero, switch to a different batch or reload the first ones several times and see a different length...all without ever moving the die. That is the problem...with the measuring device you can reset the die, but that doesn't help you with neck tension.
As an alternate I would say a borescope. Without one you are guessing whether or not your barrel is in fact clean. Can you get a bore clean without a scope??? Certainly, the scope doesn't do the cleaning, no argument there...can you really know it is for certain clean without one??? Zero chance. Why is a clean bore so important??? I would like to have back the time in dollars I have spent and seen spent chasing a ghost that was nothing more than copper in the bore. Heck, I'd just like to have the money I have seen wasted on new scopes because of copper fouling in the bore. Bullets all over the target...must be the scope!!!
I think you better listen to what Matt said, no other discipline uses a 3" x ring at 1000 yds. Including Bryan Litz, most other guns used don't have the accuracy level to know if something like uniform neck tension matters, and just write it off. Most other disciplines are not willing to do the extra work it takes to shoot as small....... jim
Houston Warehouse...... I cut a non-shooter back to 21 3/4" and it now shoots .5 MOA, somewhat better. Probably just luck!!!!!! but I am a believer in short fat barrels. He reduced accuracy to the rifle and a trigger finger.
Virgil didn't didn't tell how he prep'd cases, but that was his secret. 1/4 oz triggers help too, and actions made to 0.0001 tolerances. He didn't worry about how much or what kind of powder. It is a great read.
After you have the gun set up, dry fire and see if the crosshairs move. If they do, you aren't set up right.
Bill
Virgil didn't didn't tell how he prep'd cases, but that was his secret. 1/4 oz triggers help too, and actions made to 0.0001 tolerances. He didn't worry about how much or what kind of powder. It is a great read.
After you have the gun set up, dry fire and see if the crosshairs move. If they do, you aren't set up right.
Bill
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Bryan Litz tested several common reloading procedures in his latest book. Annealing, he concluded, doesn't help much, if at all. His data showed a tiny improvement in SD, particularly with the .223, but not enough to be significant. I'm not yet convinced that he's right, but I'm not willing to burn up the several hundred rounds it would take to prove him wrong.
Although I have a lot of respect for Brian, that very small study he did needs to be taken with a pretty big grain of salt and in proper perspective. For instance, he does not tell us how his brass was prepared after each firing which is a key piece of information for a study of this nature. As seasoned reloaders knows, there are many ways that can be done from just simple neck sizing with a bushing to much more extensive sizing which as one can imagine would affect work hardening and in turn the potential effects of annealing.
Brians356
Silver $$ Contributor
Actually, the article went into considerable detail about his case and, in particular, neck prep, involving sandpaper. The author singled out consistent neck tension as the #1 key to Virgil's accuracy (but not to the exclusion of all the other keys, like action build, barrel length, bag setup, etc.) That's why I mentioned it in response to "consistent neck tension" being mentioned.
Virgil seated using a Wilson inline seater by hand (no arbor press) and he rejected a case if it didn't have just the right feel when seating. He used only flat-based bullets and after a few preparatory firings a slight detent ring formed in the neck, and he could feel and hear the heel of the bullet click into place when seating. Otherwise, he discarded that case. As I recall a case was good for about 20 cycles, and no annealing along the way once a case was prepped and in the rotation. (He did anneal the cases one time, in the forming process from Sako 220 Russian.)
+1 That's an excellent tip!
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One thing I'd like to offer. Don't try to test too many loads at one time on the range. Fatigue and rushing through a range session can mast a potential good load combo because of shooter error. Take your time and concentrate on each shot allowing the barrel to cool between shoots. I normally do not like to test more that three combo's at one range session, 5 shots each for a total of fifteen shoots which takes me about and hour and half to complete. Also, I only take the rifle I'm testing rather than filling the time void with other rifles which may have a different trigger feel or cheek well feel.
Sound like you know . Larry
Alex Wheeler
Site $$ Sponsor
Best thing anyone can do is get out and learn this stuff at the range. For every guy that says one thing works theres another saying it doesnt. I think the best knowledge is knowledge you have learned though your own experience. And tuners are great for experienced shooters. But I cant think of a worse way to learn about tuning and the effect of load development than putting a tuner on and turning it until your groups are good.
A tuner should reduce group size 50 percent or more . If your gun shoots 2" with out and 1" with . Why would someone not want to improve the 1" . Confidence is what shooting is all about . I have several guns that shoot 5/8 to 3/4 That with a tuner shoot . 250 Why wear the barrel out chasing your tail .
You don't need to be a expert screw it on tight and do what the instructions say . Work to Lower your ES .
Larry
You don't need to be a expert screw it on tight and do what the instructions say . Work to Lower your ES .
Larry
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