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Purpose of bullet sorting

Bryan never described specific cause/affect aspects of BTO.
He also did not state that he sorts on BTO......... snip...........

Point taken. You're absolutely correct. However, he did say that if you sort bullets they should be sorted by BTO. He failed to say, or even hint, that sorting bullets is complete BS, which it very well might be. But if it is a fool's errand, I would imagine the video would have been the place to say so.

In any case, I was left with the impression that he gave some credence to sorting since he had an opinion on which criterion was the most important. It would follow, in my mind anyhow, that he had some test data on which to base his opinion. But thanks to your post, I see that he didn't actually come out and say exactly what his personal procedure was. I don't think he is a lawyer, so I didn't try to determine what the definition of "is" is. You get the point.

The rest of your post makes perfect sense, but one also has to look at what makes sense from a time/money/effort point of view and at this moment in time I draw the line at weighing my bullets. I confess to also pointing some of my competition ammo and I also trim and chamfer some bullets, but please don't tell anyone.
 
Bryan never described specific cause/affect aspects of BTO.
He also did not state that he sorts on BTO........ snip...........

I did some more digging and although he didn't specifically say he sorts on BTO, he did have this to say in his latest book, MODERN ADVANCEMENTS IN LONG RANGE SHOOTING.

"If you length sort bullets and shoot them in batches of common length, you will enjoy a substantial improvement in uniformity, though you won't be increasing or decreasing the average B.C."

Mr. Litz made a test on a length-sorted-lot of two thousand 200gr Target Hybrid bullets. The tested B.C. varied by 2.5% which produced a variation in drop at 1000 yards of 4.5"; not huge but significant for some shooters.

Contrary to the recommendation in the above video link, in this test he sorted by overall bullet length. I, for one, would be interested in hearing the back story.

Mr. Litz promised to look into bullet sorting in more detail in his next book.
 
There is a purpose in it - to win.

That said, I can't justify BTO measurements. I do some sorting because it is easier than trying to make everything the same.

Even with the sorting I do, I had my first significant flyer at long range this weekend- a good 2.5 feet from the group. That is one bullet out of about 8000 Bergers that I've fired.
 
There is a purpose in it - to win.

That said, I can't justify BTO measurements. I do some sorting because it is easier than trying to make everything the same.

Even with the sorting I do, I had my first significant flyer at long range this weekend- a good 2.5 feet from the group. That is one bullet out of about 8000 Bergers that I've fired.


Could have been something else, Powder weight? seating depth? primer leaked? , bad primer?, slight case separation? or you missed a change in a condition? So many things can happen....... BTO measurement is to check the bullet maker, they control that. It should be fairly uniform, if it is all over the place...... use your best judgement........ jim
 
Agreed, could have been a number of things. Based on the impact point (high) and evidence (scorers stated that the bullet took off while a shot within a couple of seconds of mine landed as expected), I'm thinking I missed something with the bullet.
 
Smithcollector

I believe the photo below is related to your question. This is a result of a bearing surface sort of 1000 bullets from the same manufacturer and all are the same lot. There is a .008 difference between these bullets. On a previous lot of these same bullets I had a .014 bearing surface variance out of a box of 500. I did a test on those bullets at 1000yds. Shot groups with all things being equal other than a .014 bearing surface difference and the groups printed 4" apart from each other vertically.

IMO, bearing surface, BTO, and seating stem to ogive measurements must be consistent for small groups. I use to measure weight and overall length but stopped since my testing showed these steps didn't prove to be worth the effort. Others may have a different opinion. Remember that information gained from other shooters may be very helpful but you should verify the results yourself before treating it as gospel.

IMG_0648 (1).JPG
 
Smithcollector

I believe the photo below is related to your question. This is a result of a bearing surface sort of 1000 bullets from the same manufacturer and all are the same lot. There is a .008 difference between these bullets. On a previous lot of these same bullets I had a .014 bearing surface variance out of a box of 500. I did a test on those bullets at 1000yds. Shot groups with all things being equal other than a .014 bearing surface difference and the groups printed 4" apart from each other vertically.

IMO, bearing surface, BTO, and seating stem to ogive measurements must be consistent for small groups. I use to measure weight and overall length but stopped since my testing showed these steps didn't prove to be worth the effort. Others may have a different opinion. Remember that information gained from other shooters may be very helpful but you should verify the results yourself before treating it as gospel.

View attachment 991384

JET,

Are you saying that the TOTAL vertical difference would have been 56" (14x4) if you were able to shoot all bs lots on the same target?
 
Paul

No Sir. The center of the groups were 4" apart from one another at 1k yds. The difference in friction from a longer (or shorter BS) caused a different point of impact. Point being, if you just loaded Bullets straight out of the box without sorting by BS the smallest your group could be is 4". Sorting into sub lots in .001 increments eliminates one variable.

Hope this answers the question.

Rich
 
The difference in friction from a longer (or shorter BS) caused a different point of impact.
What makes you think this? Which of potential tension, load density, bullet BC, has your testing ruled out? Was your only difference bearing length, or bullet attributes affecting bearing measure? Or was it BTO measure?
Which group of bullets shot better?
 
Yes Tom it shows what my guns showed also. I think .001 or .002 doesn't matter much but the big differences do. Another thing that really affects 1000 yard dispersion is diameter. I know we have the naysayers but most of them never test or shoot little groups at 1000 yards. Matt
 
Mike: Only difference was bearing length. All other variables were equal. You point on BC could be the cause for a different point of impact is valid. Whether it is the cause or friction is the cause it still shows up on the target.

Tom: Thanks. All shot equal
 
Smithcollector

I believe the photo below is related to your question. This is a result of a bearing surface sort of 1000 bullets from the same manufacturer and all are the same lot. There is a .008 difference between these bullets. On a previous lot of these same bullets I had a .014 bearing surface variance out of a box of 500. I did a test on those bullets at 1000yds. Shot groups with all things being equal other than a .014 bearing surface difference and the groups printed 4" apart from each other vertically.

IMO, bearing surface, BTO, and seating stem to ogive measurements must be consistent for small groups. I use to measure weight and overall length but stopped since my testing showed these steps didn't prove to be worth the effort. Others may have a different opinion. Remember that information gained from other shooters may be very helpful but you should verify the results yourself before treating it as gospel.

View attachment 991384

Jet, very interesting. I assume that the jump was the same, so the .4MOA difference can be attributed to friction or pressure or whatever bearing surface influences. Thanks for posting.
 

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