Initial report on eTargets from Lodi Nationals

[Mudeat]

Joe, those are good points. Let me express a few thoughts.
........
However, the acoustic system is neat in that it gives you the velocity of your bullet at the target, something that an optical system will be hard pressed to do. Also, the optical system would have to have a sensor placed in front of it, smack dab in the middle, that would expose it to incoming jacketed lead. The microphones are on the sides and are not in the incoming flight path.
...

Where did you conclude that an optical system needs to have "sensor smack dab in the middle" ? European systems that use a Lasaer seem to have three located around the peripheral.

 

[spclark]

European systems that use a Lasaer seem to have three located around the peripheral.

Large-screen video displays with touch-screen programming have been set up with something akin to this for several years. Around the display LCD screen there's s border of infrared LCD's on one side and top with corresponding sensors on opposing sides.

Simple programming for the X,Y coordinates of the resulting grid provides sufficient resolution to work with finger-touch placement to direct interactive programming being displayed.

Lasers such as used in check-out scanners in stores, using rotating mirrors or prisms, probably are a closer analogy to optical targeting systems.

 

[Scott Harris]

Here's my take on the experience. I'll start with the negatives. They are two fold.

First is connectivity. It was like having the worst pit service you've ever had on every string. The thumb nails on the bottom were so you could see and maybe dope other targets I assume. They are not in real time because their uploads were as delayed as mine. Screen locked up, 'loading message', big red 'X' , etc..
At one point I was scoring and trying to refresh my tablet. The shooter could have shot a crossfire for all I know because he got off several shots while an RO was fixing my screen. I even scored a string where the seven second delay wasn't working on that particular target. The shooter spit them down fast and shot a clean. There is no point having a score keeper with ET's unless he's an IT guy. As a matter of fact, the score keeper doesn't need the button to select "go for record". The shooter is the one that decides that. He can push the button. It sucks to try to go for record and the score keeper can't push the button because 'his' tablet is 'loading'.

Second is software. This was not an actual representation of what we do. The little screen is cluttered with extraneous garbage. I know some technophiles loved it but in my opinion it should be as close as possible to the traditional game. This resembled a video game. The target should be full screen and the same size for everybody, no zooming. When a shot goes through, I want a while spindle showing me where it hit. On the next shot, the last spindle disappears and seven seconds later, the new spindle location appears. The score should be displayed, preferably in the corner of the screen but not before the spindle appears. I'll admit the velocity data is cool but Just because the data can be put on the screen doesn't mean it should be. I'd like to be able to plug in a thumb drive or SD card when its my turn and save my data when logging out. I could review it later but it wouldn't take away from the traditional game while shooting. The thumb nails on the bottom are fairly representative of looking at targets in a scope if the connectivity issues are fixed.

Now the positives. No time spent on pit changes.

Jeff

Thanks for the honest feedback Jeff. The good news is the problems you have identified are very easy to fix. The bad news is the cost probably exceeds the budget of most ranges...not to mention ongoing maintenance.

First, an environmentally-hardened, enterprise-class wireless access point solution on the firing line can easily handle hundreds of simultaneously-connected wireless devices. I work for Cisco Systems and we sell such systems. They are not cheap but they will work without fail. You also need to have proper wireless coverage planning/engineering. Hire the right people to do the install with the right equipment and there will be no problems. This costs money, probably a lot more than has been spent to date. Second, the software problems described are trivial to solve for a good programming team. They can clean up the user interface, ensure the score and shot position are displayed AFTER the 7 second delay and record any shots occurring before the delay expires as misses. They could easily report live scores in real time on a web interface that could be broadcast locally and on the internet. Again, this costs money and that is the challenge given this is a small application with limited funding.

I, like a few folks here, work every day in the high tech field. There is no doubt in my mind that we have the technical ability right now to create an amazing, e-target experience that creates a truly level playing field for national-level events. Whether our small shooting community is willing and able to supply the necessary funding to achieve this result....well that's the real question. Also keep in mind that an awesome e-target solution has a maintenance "tail" that will perpetually raise the cost of shooting as long as it exists. In short, my doubts about e-targets have nothing to do with the technical options, and everything to do with the economics and long-term sustainability at today's prices. My personal opinion is that it will be many years before most ranges will be able to afford to outfit a range with the first-rate technology that a national-level event deserves. I'd prefer to stick with manual targets in the mean-time.

Side thought, maybe see if we can get the NRA involved to fund the needed enhancements....? The challenge is bigger than what a single club can fund.

 

[KT]

I would like to suggest that the default target(or even better, the only target available) for the F-Class National Championship be the F-Class target, not the Highpower target. Also, I would like to suggest setting up the system so it is impossible to go for record if you are not actually logged in.

I will admit, I got bit on this, and from what I've heard, a couple of pretty well known shooters had the same issue. When my 199-10x turned into a much lower score, it was pretty disappointing. I should have logged on(and that's on me), but the two above suggestions would eliminate someone else from having a "hero to zero" moment like I did.

I might have done exactly the same thing. I was down 1 point after 9 shots. Then I signed in and was down 8 points. It was pretty easy to screw up. Especially since the target your shooting at is the correct target.

I'm not sure how the sling target is the default target at the F-class Nationals.

 

[Rick Ratzlaff]

Joe, when tested the SMT target will plot the shot within a mm or 2mm at most for the actual value.

Thanks Herman. We've been waiting and looking for an objective indication as to the precision of the SMT targets.

Just to clarify, you're talking of the 4 sensors mounted to the target face I presume?

The Lodi system appears to be a different system. 1) more sensors, 8 shared between targets I believe. 2) mounted maybe a meter in-front of the target?

So what is the precision expected on that system?

 

[dannyjbiggs]

Here's my take on the experience. I'll start with the negatives. They are two fold.

First is connectivity. It was like having the worst pit service you've ever had on every string. The thumb nails on the bottom were so you could see and maybe dope other targets I assume. They are not in real time because their uploads were as delayed as mine. Screen locked up, 'loading message', big red 'X' , etc..
At one point I was scoring and trying to refresh my tablet. The shooter could have shot a crossfire for all I know because he got off several shots while an RO was fixing my screen. I even scored a string where the seven second delay wasn't working on that particular target. The shooter spit them down fast and shot a clean. There is no point having a score keeper with ET's unless he's an IT guy. As a matter of fact, the score keeper doesn't need the button to select "go for record". The shooter is the one that decides that. He can push the button. It sucks to try to go for record and the score keeper can't push the button because 'his' tablet is 'loading'.

Second is software. This was not an actual representation of what we do. The little screen is cluttered with extraneous garbage. I know some technophiles loved it but in my opinion it should be as close as possible to the traditional game. This resembled a video game. The target should be full screen and the same size for everybody, no zooming. When a shot goes through, I want a while spindle showing me where it hit. On the next shot, the last spindle disappears and seven seconds later, the new spindle location appears. The score should be displayed, preferably in the corner of the screen but not before the spindle appears. I'll admit the velocity data is cool but Just because the data can be put on the screen doesn't mean it should be. I'd like to be able to plug in a thumb drive or SD card when its my turn and save my data when logging out. I could review it later but it wouldn't take away from the traditional game while shooting. The thumb nails on the bottom are fairly representative of looking at targets in a scope if the connectivity issues are fixed.

Now the positives. No time spent on pit changes.

Jeff

Jeff...the reality of your analysis of equating the ET's to hand-pulled target service is sobering. I don't think that I got thru a single relay as "shooter" or "score keeper" without some distraction by the ET, either. However, I do think that the Match Director, Chief Line Officer and his assistants, along with the contractors, and other administrative personnel performed as best they could with the equipment they had.
We simply could not have completed the championship without the ET's.

One of the matters that might seem bothersome from a management aspect would be the adoption of integration firing to speed up completion. Although not a bother to me, that act would tend to compromise the spirit of "seed squading", particularly where the hot-shot relay is on a higher relay than Relay 1?

But, did you notice the exceptional amount of cross-firing going on? Or am I just seeing it from a Team Berger aspect!! Thank goodness we controlled ourselves during the team matches, but during the individual firing we logged up 10 cross-fires amongst us (while Larry is always our "designated cross-firer", one now and then!!).

On the last match of the last day, I failed to take a que from one of my cross-fired sighters, and went ahead and did it 2 more times in record fire. Simple carelessness, I know...a spate of Alzheimer's maybe...the ET's finally got me. I like the latter excuse a little, too. In hand-pulled targets, my firing routine is not abnormal: Shoot, watch the target go down in my riflescope while concurrently reloading, recognize and center up on the downed target number, watch the target come back up, finalize a firing solution and eventually shoot again as required...all accomplished while looking down range at the target for feedback and wind/mirage-doping thru the riflescope. ET's direct my attention for feedback first to the monitor for at least 4 seconds plus and then I'm back to the rifle scope to line up for the next shot. A distraction. So, that's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

I offer that this was the only time that I recollect cross-firing with an F-Open rifle since picking one up in 2010. Yes, I intend to watch myself over the next 6 months while shooting on hand-pulled targets. If another cross-fire appears during that period of time, I will visit the doctor concerning the big "A", mentioned above; and drop any assertions against the big red "X".

Dan

 

[Jay Christopherson]

Jeff...the reality of your analysis of equating the ET's to hand-pulled target service is sobering. I don't think that I got thru a single relay as "shooter" or "score keeper" without some distraction by the ET, either. However, I do think that the Match Director, Chief Line Officer and his assistants, along with the contractors, and other administrative personnel performed as best they could with the equipment they had.
We simply could not have completed the championship without the ET's.

One of the matters that might seem bothersome from a management aspect would be the adoption of integration firing to speed up completion. Although not a bother to me, that act would tend to compromise the spirit of "seed squading", particularly where the hot-shot relay is on a higher relay than Relay 1?

But, did you notice the exceptional amount of cross-firing going on? Or am I just seeing it from a Team Berger aspect!! Thank goodness we controlled ourselves during the team matches, but during the individual firing we logged up 10 cross-fires amongst us (while Larry is always our "designated cross-firer"!!).

On the last match of the last day, I failed to take a que from one of my cross-fired sighters, and went ahead and did it 2 more times in record fire. Simple carelessness, I know...a spate of alshemiers(?) maybe...the ET's finally got me. I like the latter excuse a little, too. In hand-pulled targets, my firing routine is not abnormal: Shoot, watch the target go down in my riflescope while concurrently reloading, recognize and center up on the downed target number, watch the target come back up, finalize a firing solution and eventually shoot again as required...all accomplished while looking down range at the target for feedback and wind/mirage-doping thru the riflescope. ET's direct my attention for feedback first to the monitor for at least 4 seconds plus and then back to the rifle scope to line up for the next shot. A distraction. So, that's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

I offer that this was the only time that I recollect cross-firing with an F-Open rifle. Yes, I intend to watch myself over the next 6 months shooting on hand-pulled targets. If another cross-fire appears during that period of time, I will visit the doctor concerning the big "A", mentioned above; and drop any assertions against the big red "X".

Dan

In this vein, I'll admit to a cross-fire (thankfully during a sighter period) as well. Which is a bit unusual for me. I think the uptick in crossfires is probably in large part due to two things:

1) You have to take your eyes off the target in order to see your hit plotted
2) There is no visual feedback on the target (i.e., spotter/scoring disk, target going down)

On the other hand, I knew immediately that I cross-fired because my tablet did not indicate a shot received on target (the timer counting down). Just to be certain, I checked with the line officer who confirmed the cross-fire onto the target next to me. I know it cost a lot of guys, but I think both of those things are just things that can be adjusted to with more use. This was my first time for record fire on E-targets and I'll admit my first relay was a little disheveled because of it. I wish I had come in a day earlier and done the practice.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

Where did you conclude that an optical system needs to have "sensor smack dab in the middle" ? European systems that use a Lasaer seem to have three located around the peripheral.

Because I was being a funny guy. Joe was talking about seeing the hits on the target via some optical arrangement. I figured a camera would be great, but it would need to be in the middle, in the front of the target, like a human scorer.

The SMT works with supersonic signatures, others can work with radar, sensor arrays, proximity detection, infra-red, you name it but all these are methods to detect the bullet's position in a virtual grid and then match that to a real target. Aligning the target with the grid will remain a constant fear and that's what people are discussing.

If the target is not quite in sync with the sensor grid, (whatever that may be,) you will not get the point when you hit on say, the right side and actually touch the ring, but you will get the point when you go out the left and do not quite touch the ring. It evens out, and we are talking rodent's testicles here. Yes, people will say that's what it takes to win, but remember that humans have been interpreting these hits for a long time and you know what that means.

ETA: I started a separate thread about accessing your scores over the Internet.

 

[dbramley]

I shot 2, both during sighters on different days. Sorry again John Myers!!
And I have a fairly young brain, so likely not the big "A"!!!


Dan

 

[dannyjbiggs]

I would like to suggest that the default target(or even better, the only target available) for the F-Class National Championship be the F-Class target, not the Highpower target. Also, I would like to suggest setting up the system so it is impossible to go for record if you are not actually logged in.

I will admit, I got bit on this, and from what I've heard, a couple of pretty well known shooters had the same issue. When my 199-10x turned into a much lower score, it was pretty disappointing. I should have logged on(and that's on me), but the two above suggestions would eliminate someone else from having a "hero to zero" moment like I did.

Try this one on! Either at the 500 or 600 yard match on the first day of the MR, my score keeper was excitedly beside himself calling out my record shot values: X, X, X, and so on for twenty shots straight. (Have to admit, I felt a little thrill, too!) Then, the score keeper readied the final ET score card for my acceptance. (I had already signed my hard copy 200-20x score card (with a shaking hand)). When I tapped the acceptance button on the moniter, my score came up on the device instead: 200-13x...WTH!!!

Called one of the linesmen over for an explanation. He responded that I was logged in on the "sling" target; further, that he had noticed that error on my part earlier, but let it go because he did not want to disturb me. I wish to heck that he had disturbed me early on. There is likelihood that I could have clicked some of those high/low 10's (appearing as X's) into the real x-ring, and more closely held some of those wide either side 10's (appearing as X's) into the X-ring.

Dan

 

[Ned Ludd]

Try this one on! Either at the 500 or 600 yard match on the first day of the MR, my score keeper was excitedly beside himself calling out my record shot values: X, X, X, and so on for twenty shots straight. (Have to admit, I felt a little thrill, too!) Then, the score keeper readied the final ET score card for my acceptance. (I had already signed my hard copy 200-20x score card (with a shaking hand)). When I tapped the acceptance button on the moniter, my score came up on the device instead: 200-13x...WTH!!!

Called one of the linesmen over for an explanation. He responded that I was logged in on the "sling" target; further, that he had noticed that error on my part earlier, but let it go because he did not want to disturb me. I wish to heck that he had disturbed me early on. There is likelihood that I could have clicked some of those high/low 10's (appearing as X's) into the real x-ring, and more closely held some of those wide either side 10's (appearing as X's) into the X-ring.

Dan

Look at the bright side: for about 10 or 12 minutes, you were on top of the world!

 

[dbramley]

Maybe a visit to the neurologist is warranted!!! Just kidding, love ya to death Danny!!!

 

[Immike]

Had a FTR guy on my relay that thought he was shooting for score in the first relay of LR. Lol. After 18 sighters he shot a 198 for a reward!

 

[B Nettesheim]

Try this one on! Either at the 500 or 600 yard match on the first day of the MR, my score keeper was excitedly beside himself calling out my record shot values: X, X, X, and so on for twenty shots straight. (Have to admit, I felt a little thrill, too!) Then, the score keeper readied the final ET score card for my acceptance. (I had already signed my hard copy 200-20x score card (with a shaking hand)). When I tapped the acceptance button on the moniter, my score came up on the device instead: 200-13x...WTH!!!

Called one of the linesmen over for an explanation. He responded that I was logged in on the "sling" target; further, that he had noticed that error on my part earlier, but let it go because he did not want to disturb me. I wish to heck that he had disturbed me early on. There is likelihood that I could have clicked some of those high/low 10's (appearing as X's) into the real x-ring, and more closely held some of those wide either side 10's (appearing as X's) into the X-ring.

Dan

Dan, sorry for not disturbing you earlier. Sebold had a similar situation and he called me over cause they couldn't send in their scorecards, i asked why there were so many shots on target and he said that 32 x's would be a new record. I noticed that he also was not signed in and therefore could not send in his scorecard. Once signed in the target was adjusted along with the score....that was a good time to go help someone else

 

[Cochran]

Jeff...the reality of your analysis of equating the ET's to hand-pulled target service is sobering. I don't think that I got thru a single relay as "shooter" or "score keeper" without some distraction by the ET, either. However, I do think that the Match Director, Chief Line Officer and his assistants, along with the contractors, and other administrative personnel performed as best they could with the equipment they had.
We simply could not have completed the championship without the ET's.

One of the matters that might seem bothersome from a management aspect would be the adoption of integration firing to speed up completion. Although not a bother to me, that act would tend to compromise the spirit of "seed squading", particularly where the hot-shot relay is on a higher relay than Relay 1?

But, did you notice the exceptional amount of cross-firing going on? Or am I just seeing it from a Team Berger aspect!! Thank goodness we controlled ourselves during the team matches, but during the individual firing we logged up 10 cross-fires amongst us (while Larry is always our "designated cross-firer", one now and then!!).

On the last match of the last day, I failed to take a que from one of my cross-fired sighters, and went ahead and did it 2 more times in record fire. Simple carelessness, I know...a spate of Alzheimer's maybe...the ET's finally got me. I like the latter excuse a little, too. In hand-pulled targets, my firing routine is not abnormal: Shoot, watch the target go down in my riflescope while concurrently reloading, recognize and center up on the downed target number, watch the target come back up, finalize a firing solution and eventually shoot again as required...all accomplished while looking down range at the target for feedback and wind/mirage-doping thru the riflescope. ET's direct my attention for feedback first to the monitor for at least 4 seconds plus and then I'm back to the rifle scope to line up for the next shot. A distraction. So, that's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

I offer that this was the only time that I recollect cross-firing with an F-Open rifle since picking one up in 2010. Yes, I intend to watch myself over the next 6 months while shooting on hand-pulled targets. If another cross-fire appears during that period of time, I will visit the doctor concerning the big "A", mentioned above; and drop any assertions against the big red "X".

Dan

Danny
Yes there were more crossfires than normal. Our team target was on the receiving end of two of them. Luckily they caused minimal disturbance. Like Scott said, a lot of the problems can be fixed but I don't think crossfires are one of them. I guess target numbers could be put on the target boards themselves but again, I'm in favor of keeping ET's as close to the same experience we've traditionally had and as close to non ET ranges as possible. I don't want an amazing experience, as Scott put it, I want continuity.

Along those same lines, I'm kinda torn on whether national records should be allowed on ET's until a standard format is set that is close to non ET's. I have no idea if any records were set. If someone did with those conditions then they probably deserve a national record. However, others may have been equally up to the task but didn't get the chance due to electronic problems and the infiltration squadding mess. One should have to shoot against his peers on equal footing to claim a record.

I'm going to try to remain optimistic about the potential of ET's but it'll take a lot more than I've seen so far.

 

[Zilla]

Jeff
John Myers and I both shot a 200-18x at 500 yards. That ties the existing record. We'll see what happens.

 

[aussiepowderburner]

The targets looked like they were placed very close together which could have encouraged extra cross fires?

 

[rmist]

The targets looked like they were placed very close together which could have encouraged extra cross fires?

The numbers were also offset ...so if you went straight down from your number you could've been on either your own target or your neighbors !! They were very tight together

 

[Bob Sebold]

Until this year I had never cross fired in a match. I did it twice this year. Once at the nationals and one at the Mid West Palma. We pulled manually at the mid west. Only constant was a 80 power scope and you could not see the number boards. That is what causes cross fires gentleman. Be warned. If you want to shoot fast with e targets, game the system, you can, please check out my individual scores doing so on the first day. Although I had a cross fire due to 80 power stupidity. Still deduct 10 pts from the 41 I lost first day. After going home and removing my head from my posterior I decided to shoot the way I usually do without "gaming the system". Please check the scores! It may help you decide how you want to shoot at Lodi with the wind we have.

If you have imperfect pullers, you will not do well in a match. Since we had none, people stop bitching about pullers. What to blame next? I cross fired because I screwed up, not sure about any body else. Maybe get off 80 power? That's not the targets fault. Perhaps the biggest difference is you may have to own up to it on an e target were it is much easier on a pulled target to get away with cross fires? That may account for more cross fires. As far as I am concerned, this system is not only more fair, but more honest. Honesty would have changed the outcome of several past National matches from what I have been told.

I know at times the actual center and displayed center are off a tiny bit. If you understand how these targets work, it will make no difference what so ever to your scores. Adding or subtracting one click to your zero should not be overwhelming to the average shooter. I notice my zero changes throughout the day at most venues due to temp. changes. I looked at the targets down in the pits often when putting them away or changing at the mid range. Most were what I would call exact. A few were off by less than two clicks. I know it is hard for a shooter to admit his planned shot did not go in the X ring, but it happens event to the likes of the great Danny Biggs on occasion! These targets do not lie!

I also realize there are a few things we need to fix about the range. I knew it before the match started. Sometimes it not possible to get everything done correctly the first time when you have to deal with a board of directors. I think this match was so successful that we can fix what needs to be fixed with the range before the next match. I hope to see all of you again next year. We are getting some Ninja proof software to ward off Zilla. His fixes must not have worked because he did not win!

See you all in Phoenix! Even if I have to go to the pits! Love you Michelle!

 

[243Mendoza]

....
I offer that this was the only time that I recollect cross-firing with an F-Open rifle since picking one up in 2010. Yes, I intend to watch myself over the next 6 months while shooting on hand-pulled targets. If another cross-fire appears during that period of time, I will visit the doctor concerning the big "A", mentioned above; and drop any assertions against the big red "X"....
Dan

I can't see why the target number is not ON the target for FClass-only competitions. The present number boards were designed for iron sights and can be high or low below the target and out of sight for your scope.