powder between varget and H4350

[TAJ45]

Would a rough analogy = The brisance of a primer? Of course accepting the # as representing the intensity at the beginning.
Now, you say "coefficient". How is that number arrived at? In general terms.

 

[BoydAllen]

I have it on the best authority (directly from Western Powders) that A2230 and Xterminator are the same exact powder. Check the list that was posted on this tread and you will see that they are quite a bit apart. That makes me mistrust the order of the entire list. I am sure that the poster offered it in good faith, nevertheless...

 

[Nvreloader]

TAJ45

Powder name
Powder Heat of explosion,
The energy content per unit mass of specified powder.
Hot to Cold
Alliant Bullseye 5158
Hodgdon Clay 4250
------------------------------
Powder name
Ratio of specific heat,
The ratio of consent pressure of specific heat,
to constant volume of specific heat.
Hot to Cold
Alliant Bullseye 1.2090
Hodgdon Clay 1.2218
-------------------------------
Powder name
Burning rate factor,
The burning rate coefficient during combustion of powder.
Fast to Slow
Hodgdon Clay 6.7000
Alliant Bullseye 3.6300
------------------------------

Tia,
Don

May I then deduce that the lower the number, the higher the intensity? This thought train from comparing the BE to the Clays.

 

[Nvreloader]

Sparker

Please, look at post #10,
Yes,
IMR- 3031 is slightly slower than IMR- 4320,
per QL values/testing.

Tia,
Don

Careful here, that is only one factor of the burn rate/pressure curve. Using that value alone would suggest that 3031 is slightly slower than 4320. "Danger Will Robinson!"

 

[Nvreloader]

Boyd
As per our emails,
QL shows this information for these powders,
as you can see, there is a difference.

Can you explain why the differences, if they are the same powder?
Yes, I agree, some of the differences are slight,
but some are not.

Would or could these differences create problems when reloading,
IMHO, I believe they can.

I have seen/read numerous times,
that xyz and yxz powders are the same,
but when checking QL, there is difference between the powders,
there are only a couple of powders that ARE exactly the same.

And NO, I am not starting a whizzing contest,
but like a valid discussion.
--------------------------------------------------
Powder name
Powder Heat of explosion,
The energy content per unit mass of specified powder.
Hot to Cold
RAMSHOT X-TERINATOR 3865
Accurate 2230 3710
------------------------------
Powder name
Ratio of specific heat,
The ratio of consent pressure of specific heat,
to constant volume of specific heat.
Hot to Cold
RAMSHOT X-TERINATOR 1.2370
Accurate 2230 1.2380
-------------------------------
Powder name
Burning rate factor,
The burning rate coefficient during combustion of powder.
Fast to Slow
RAMSHOT X-TERINATOR 0.6100
Accurate 2230 0.5230

Tia,
Don

I have it on the best authority (directly from Western Powders) that A2230 and Xterminator are the same exact powder. Check the list that was posted on this tread and you will see that they are quite a bit apart. That makes me mistrust the order of the entire list. I am sure that the poster offered it in good faith, nevertheless...

 

[BoydAllen]

I guess my questions would be: Where does Quickload source its information, and do the people who wrote the program have the same sort of pressure testing equipment that powder manufacturers do? My understanding is that the two are different labelings of the same powder. If you like, call Western Powders Inc. This information came to me when I spoke to them when looking for some Xterminator, during the time when it was almost impossible to find. From that call I also learned that there had been a fire in part of the Belgian factory that makes the powder, which was the reason for the scarcity.

 

[TAJ45]

Good questions all. Then we come to the variation of lots . . . Always a wild card in this game it seems.

Right now I am mentally entering arenas that are so far beyond my shooting and reloading skills. Like a 14 yo kid who has been "racing karts since he was 10" with a race prepped Porsche. . Need to get to burning powder.

 

[sparker]

Sparker

Please, look at post #10,
Yes,
IMR- 3031 is slightly slower than IMR- 4320,
per QL values/testing.

Tia,
Don

You miss my point entirely. I have no issue with the values as represented. However, that does not in anyway mean that people can use those values to determine powder suitability for a cartridge. The danger here is that people could look at those values alone and erroneously think that they can use more 3031 in a given cartridge than 4320. People should use burn rate charts compiled in reloading manuals and load accordingly.

Scott Parker

 

[Nvreloader]

Boyd
I have contacted them,
But IMHO, I don't believe I'll receive a valid answer,
being a "Joe Blow nobody" etc.

Tia,
Don

 

[Geno C]

I can say with a decent amount of certainty that my order, which was compiled over years of testing and comparing different company's charts, is dang close to perfect. I can take one step towards he slower end and start with the same charge as the powder one step faster and always be safe. Now I'm not talking the places where there are large gaps in speed but the ones that are fairly close.

 

[Nvreloader]

Sparker

You miss my point entirely. I have no issue with the values as represented.

However, that does not in anyway mean that people can use those values to determine powder suitability for a cartridge.

Sparker
I agree,
The original poster, ask if there was a slightly faster powder, for his use,
I just provided a list showing the burn rates of the most common powders available in the US.
I was attempting to provide some useful info to help him, as it is apparent that the OP has knowledge of or about reloading for his case.

The danger here is that people could look at those values alone and erroneously think that they can use more 3031 in a given cartridge than 4320.

Is it not,
The responsibility of that person doing the reloading to check the feasibility of any powder they choose to load for their case/bullet combo, I would think so.

People should use burn rate charts compiled in reloading manuals and load accordingly.

I have several burn rate charts that the powder company's have released,
there is no 2 of them that have the same powders listed in the same approximate burning order,
plus given, that lot's of powders change each time they are made.

IMHO,
The most positive way to have any reasonable results for checking,
is to have and use the QL program,
then you can see the approximate results for your case/bullet combo etc,
and see if everything is safe and proper,
before jumping out of the pan and into the fire.

Tia,
Don

Scott Parker

 

[calgarycanada]

Sparker

Please, look at post #10,
Yes,
IMR- 3031 is slightly slower than IMR- 4320,
per QL values/testing.

Tia,
Don

Huh, well that's a surprise because every other burn rate chart that I have seen puts IMR 3031 to be faster then even H4895, more in the league of Benchmark. IMR 4320 is tad slower than varget, more in league of RL15.
I understand lot differences but above statement is very hard to believe, but again I'm not a powder testing expert.
Either manufacturers or Quickload are wrong in this and at best it's misleading and at worst it can be dangerous. JMHO

 

[Nvreloader]

Boyd
It took me a while to find the info you asked about.

I guess my questions would be:

Where does Quickload source its information,
and do the people who wrote the program have the same sort of pressure testing equipment that powder manufacturers do?

Per info read in the QL manual,
They obtain their info from the powder company's,
and have access/use a closed-bomb pressure vessel,
and uses other laboratory resources, in their QL calculations.

Tia,
Don

My understanding is that the two are different labelings of the same powder. If you like, call Western Powders Inc. This information came to me when I spoke to them when looking for some Xterminator, during the time when it was almost impossible to find. From that call I also learned that there had been a fire in part of the Belgian factory that makes the powder, which was the reason for the scarcity.

 

[Nvreloader]

Boyd

I received an answer back from Western powders,
see here,
-----Original Message-----
From: Don
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2016 12:04 PM

To: Sherri
Subject: Enquiry Don

Question for you,

It has been reported/posted that Ramshot X-terinator and Accurate 2230 powders are the SAME POWDERS,
yet when checking a reloading program,
I find these differences between these powders.
--------------------------------
Powder name
Powder Heat of explosion,
The energy content per unit mass of specified powder.
Hot to Cold
RAMSHOT X-TERINATOR -3865
Accurate 2230 -3710
------------------------------
Powder name
Ratio of specific heat,
The ratio of consent pressure of specific heat,
to constant volume of specific heat.
Hot to Cold
RAMSHOT X-TERINATOR- 1.2370
Accurate 2230- 1.2380
-------------------------------
Powder name
Burning rate factor,
The burning rate coefficient during combustion of powder.
Fast to Slow
RAMSHOT X-TERINATOR- 0.6100
Accurate 2230- 0.5230

Granted, some of the differences are slight, but some are not.
Can you provide any answers or a site to explain why?

Thank you,
Don

Their reply was,
Don,
They are the same powder.
The differences could be from the powders being from different lots.

Don W.
CSR

Boyd
I have contacted them,
But IMHO, I don't believe I'll receive a valid answer,
being a "Joe Blow nobody" etc.
Tia,
Don

IMHO,
If there is that much differences between those powders,
I would NOT use the same load data interchanging between those powders.

YMMV,

Tia,
Don

 

[BoydAllen]

Don,
What difference? You have it from Western that they are the same exact powder. The point of my original post was and is that the Quick Load burning rate chart is significantly different from that, and I suppose that I should add that I would take the powder company information as being a superior source. I believe that other posters have mentioned discrepancies as well. When you have two powders that come out of the same bin, that the only difference is the label on the bottle, and they are that far apart on a burn rate chart, IMO the logical conclusion is that the problems is with the chart.

 

[Nvreloader]

Don,
What difference?

Boyd,
See the differences here,
---------------------------
Powder name
Powder Heat of explosion,
The energy content per unit mass of specified powder.
Hot to Cold
RAMSHOT X-TERINATOR -3865
Accurate 2230 -3710
------------------------------
Powder name
Ratio of specific heat,
The ratio of consent pressure of specific heat,
to constant volume of specific heat.
Hot to Cold
RAMSHOT X-TERINATOR- 1.2370
Accurate 2230- 1.2380
-------------------------------
Powder name
Burning rate factor,
The burning rate coefficient during combustion of powder.
Fast to Slow
RAMSHOT X-TERINATOR- 0.6100
Accurate 2230- 0.5230

You have it from Western that they are the same exact powder. The point of my original post was and is that the Quick Load burning rate chart is significantly different from that, and I suppose that I should add that I would take the powder company information as being a superior source.

Per info read in the QL manual,
They obtain their info from the powder company's,
and have access/use a closed-bomb pressure vessel,
and uses other laboratory resources, in their QL calculations.

I believe that other posters have mentioned discrepancies as well. When you have two powders that come out of the same bin, that the only difference is the label on the bottle, and they are that far apart on a burn rate chart,

IMO the logical conclusion is that the problems is with the chart.

I DON'T know which to believe, but lean towards QL, until I know better.
At least with QL I can do test and see results, which will work the best in various case and load combo's etc.

YMMV,

Tia,
Don

 

[BoydAllen]

Running different combinations on a computer program is not testing. Generally, I do load workups loading at the range, and the only thing that I use manuals for is to determine a safe starting load to start from. It seems that with the advent of Quick Load, that there seems to be a tendency to confuse trying different combinations using that program with actual testing. It is not. People who produce data for loading manuals have pressure testing equipment for a reason. I think that Quickload is a marvelous program, but I would never try a hot load based on its prediction alone. I would start with a conservative load and work up, actually shooting at the range.

 

[Nvreloader]

Boyd,
I also agree that running a test on QL is not testing,
I use QL to see if the possible load combo is a SAFE/SANE minimum starting load.

Then head for the range for actual shooting/testing to find the results etc.

Tia,
Don

Running different combinations on a computer program is not testing. Generally, I do load workups loading at the range, and the only thing that I use manuals for is to determine a safe starting load to start from. It seems that with the advent of Quick Load, that there seems to be a tendency to confuse trying different combinations using that program with actual testing. It is not. People who produce data for loading manuals have pressure testing equipment for a reason. I think that Quickload is a marvelous program, but I would never try a hot load based on its prediction alone. I would start with a conservative load and work up, actually shooting at the range.

 

[Brians356]

I have personally had good luck with CFE223 in my 6BR, 22-250ai, 308 and forget the hype on this powder it just works!

I love CFE 223. Careful, though, CFE is erratic in certain cartridges. In particular 6mm Rem but there are others. If Hodgdon does not publish data for it, I suggest calling Hodgdon tech support and ask them. I noticed they published for 243 Win and 243 WSSM, so I asked them about 6mm Rem and was told emphatically "Don't try it! It's too erratic."

I told that story to a friend recently and he laughed, then told me had tried CFE 223 himself in 6mm Rem and got a nasty surprise when he was working through an increasing charge sequence and suddenly had to use a big mallet to open the bolt, and the primer fell out of the case. The preceding lower charge increment was completely innocuous, with no pressure signs!
-

 

[Webster]

Cfe223, H380, and H414 are the ones I have that are in between varget and H4350. These are in order of burn rate

Does your home insurance cover a fire from over 100 lbs of gunpowder in your basement? Did you tell your insurance agent you store large amounts of gunpowder in your home? Cannot imagine why you need so many powder types.