powder between varget and H4350

[Geno C]

Does your home insurance cover a fire from over 100 lbs of gunpowder in your basement? Did you tell your insurance agent you store large amounts of gunpowder in your home? Cannot imagine why you need so many powder types.

I am in compliance with my insurance company. Thank you for your concern. Also if that room ever gets hot enough to ignite my powder and primers then there won't be anything left anyway. 12" walls and a 6" ceiling of solid concrete with no part of the house on top of it and on the farthest side away from the furnace, dryer and garage. I reload with my insurance agent so he is fully aware.

As for the reason someone would need so many types of powder; I have more than one gun. I'll leave it at that.

 

[Catfur]

Does your home insurance cover a fire from over 100 lbs of gunpowder in your basement? Did you tell your insurance agent you store large amounts of gunpowder in your home? Cannot imagine why you need so many powder types.

There is no such thing as too much gunpowder (there certainly is such a thing as too much black powder). Smokeless powder doesn't spontaneously ignite (these days, anyway).

 

[Webster]

I am in compliance with my insurance company. Thank you for your concern. Also if that room ever gets hot enough to ignite my powder and primers then there won't be anything left anyway. 12" walls and a 6" ceiling of solid concrete with no part of the house on top of it and on the farthest side away from the furnace, dryer and garage. I reload with my insurance agent so he is fully aware.

As for the reason someone would need so many types of powder; I have more than one gun. I'll leave it at that.

Not sure I think you need a permit from ATF if you have over a certain amount of powder. Some state fire codes require approved fire resistant containers if you have more than a certain amount. Good luck. Happy shooting.

 

[Geno C]

Not sure I think you need a permit from ATF if you have over a certain amount of powder. Some state fire codes require approved fire resistant containers if you have more than a certain amount. Good luck. Happy shooting.

I'm good. Had this conversation with ATF field agent.

 

[Ringostar]

Hodgdon has redone their burn rate chart. Take notice of where Varget is now compared to the chart that Don posted. Compare it with the 4895's.

 

[Brians356]

Does your home insurance cover a fire from over 100 lbs of gunpowder in your basement? Did you tell your insurance agent you store large amounts of gunpowder in your home? Cannot imagine why you need so many powder types.

"That's not gunpowder, it's just 100 lbs of fertilizer. Oops, no, wait ... ".

And it's not a basement, it's a bunker.
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[JohnnyJohnson]

Have you thought about H4895?

 

[Brians356]

Boyd,
I also agree that running a test on QL is not testing,
I use QL to see if the possible load combo is a SAFE/SANE minimum starting load.

Then head for the range for actual shooting/testing to find the results etc.

Don, it would be most enlightening to load a particular case / primer / bullet combo, guided by QL, using the two labeled powders in question, X-Terminator and Accurate 2230, and compare the results head to head. If QL assigns such dissimilar burn rates, then for that cartridge QL should specify significantly dissimilar charge values to produce a specific velocity. Then one could chronograph them and take note of the results, which should be of interest.

If different lots of a particular powder can have (however QL manages to discern them) such dissimilar burn rates, it should give reloaders in general, and QL acolytes in particular, a queasy feeling. It does me. Maybe QL will some day require you to input "Lot #" for its algorithm.

FWIW I have a hunch that offhand "could be from the powders being from different lots" from the manufacturer was punting, and an attempt to discourage any follow-up questions - nothing more. Just a hunch.
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[Cujo]

I love CFE 223. Careful, though, CFE is erratic in certain cartridges. In particular 6mm Rem but there are others. If Hodgdon does not publish data for it, I suggest calling Hodgdon tech support and ask them. I noticed they published for 243 Win and 243 WSSM, so I asked them about 6mm Rem and was told emphatically "Don't try it! It's too erratic."

I told that story to a friend recently and he laughed, then told me had tried CFE 223 himself in 6mm Rem and got a nasty surprise when he was working through an increasing charge sequence and suddenly had to use a big mallet to open the bolt, and the primer fell out of the case. The preceding lower charge increment was completely innocuous, with no pressure signs!
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FWIW, I was trying out .308 Win with CFE223, Lapua 155's, and Lapua brass. Hodgdon's starting load is 49.5 grains and their max is 51.0 grains. I started out below their starting charge and glad I did. After adjusting Ba in Quickload with reduced charges shot the prior week, 49.5 grains would've been over max and their maximum charge of 51.0 grains was more than 20,000 psi over SAAMI max (62,000 psi).

 

[Brians356]

FWIW, I was trying out .308 Win with CFE223, Lapua 155's, and Lapua brass. Hodgdon's starting load is 49.5 grains and their max is 51.0 grains. I started out below their starting charge and glad I did. After adjusting Ba in Quickload with reduced charges shot the prior week, 49.5 grains would've been over max and their maximum charge of 51.0 grains was more than 20,000 psi over SAAMI max (62,000 psi).

Interesting.

Since I mentioned them earlier, it's interesting to look at Hodgdon's load data for 6mm Rem compared to 243 WSSM. As different as these cases are, they are virtual clones WRT loading when considering the powders common to both cartridges in Hogdon's data. The max charge weights and velocities for the common powders are so close as to be statistically indistinguishable (within 1-2%). So it's interesting that Hodgdon found CFE 223 eminently suitable for 243 WSSM, but unsuitable for 6mm Rem. To me, anyway.
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[Nvreloader]

Brains356

I plan on doing this, the testing of both powders in the same firearm,
just have to find the powders and a couple of calibers that would be the normal for these powders.

You are correct on the reply from Western Powder Company.
the usual BS etc.

Tia,
Don

Don, it would be most enlightening to load a particular case / primer / bullet combo, guided by QL, using the two labeled powders in question, X-Terminator and Accurate 2230, and compare the results head to head. If QL assigns such dissimilar burn rates, then for that cartridge QL should specify significantly dissimilar charge values to produce a specific velocity. Then one could chronograph them and take note of the results, which should be of interest.

If different lots of a particular powder can have (however QL manages to discern them) such dissimilar burn rates, it should give reloaders in general, and QL acolytes in particular, a queasy feeling. It does me. Maybe QL will some day require you to input "Lot #" for its algorithm.

FWIW I have a hunch that offhand "could be from the powders being from different lots" from the manufacturer was punting, and an attempt to discourage any follow-up questions - nothing more. Just a hunch.
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[BoydAllen]

Some powders are known to have significant lot to lot variation...Varget for instance. If Quickload data does not agree with that from a manufacturer's I would want to know how often both confirm their data, and how that is done. If you test two powders that are supposed to be identical, I think that the best way would be to make the comparison using powder that was made in the same time frame. "I think" without any data, seems to me to be of little value.

 

[Brians356]

... If Quickload data does not agree with that from a manufacturer's I would want to know how often both confirm their data, and how that is done. If you test two powders that are supposed to be identical, I think that the best way would be to make the comparison using powder that was made in the same time frame. ...

I was more joking than not about QL asking for powder lot #, but that might be an answer. Then there's the fact that powders can change over time while stored, however subtle that may be. I suppose we could be asking too much, but GIGO as an axiom will never be obsolete.
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[XTR]

Burn rate is an indicator, but it is only part of the equation when it comes to peak pressure from powders, and the note about lot to lot variation is well noted. My last lot change with H4350 required a full grain more powder than the previous lot to achieve the same MV as the last with the same components and rifle. Now, were that going the other way and you were loading on the edge you might see blown primers as your first indication. Below is the most recent Hogden data I see on the web. (again, as noted above, H4895 is much faster than Varget in this table)

http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Burn Rates - 2015-2016.pdf

 

[Geno C]

H4895 is always faster than varget in my experience also

 

[Iowa Fox]

This spring I purchased 2- 1 lb plastic bottles of H100V both from the same box and Lot #. I had brass ready for the 2 lbs and was loading it all at one sitting. When I dumped the second bottle in the thrower I thought maybe I should check it on the scale. Darned if I didn't have the re-adjust on the second bottle. Figured same box and lot # I should be safe- NO!

 

[GrocMax]

That QL list makes me queasy. N133 is faster than RL7, and 2015 close to 4320?

LOL.

GIGO.

 

[cowboybart]

I'm having a hard time believing that 4198 is faster than 296???

That looks like an "adequate" supply of powder - Why are we worried about insurance agents and a gov't bureaucrat?? His house, his goods - he can store them any way he chooses.

 

[MagnumManiac]

Having read all posts, it must be understood that a burn rate chart is NOT gospel. Some powders in certain case sizes can, and do, swap places, the faster powder produces MORE velocity than the slower powder. Example, RE19 against RE22 in the 338WM, RE19 is quite a bit faster velocity wise.
Also, QL is wrong in several areas, but, I will not get into that here.

I worked for ADI making brass and powder for Hodgdon, the calorimeter bomb used to test the powders pressure, is NOT how powder behaves in a gun.
It is a linear measurement only. It measures the pressure gained in a cylinder, that is all. This is then extrapolated with previous lots, it must be within 3% of the original test batch.
Powder burn rates change with case size, bore size and, more importantly, case shape.
The reason a powder slows down in straight walled, or minimally shouldered cases, is a good example of case shape changing the burn characteristics of powders. This is not a fluke that faster powders behave slow in this scenario.
It's due to the flow of gas/powder behind the travelling bullet, this slows the burn down.
Another example, the 338WM likes faster powders than the 340 Weatherby likes, even though the case capacities aren't that much different. Meanwhile, the 300WM really shines with really slow powders.

To the OP, have you considered RE19 in your shortened 7SAUM?
I would figure it would perform quite well, velocity should be up there.

Cheers.