My new AMP Annealer

[Scott Harris]

A couple of comments.

Let's assuming that the AMP annealed cases are better in this situation, the question is was your gas annealed cases not annealed properly or annealed properly but the annealer is not capable of annealing as evenly as the AMP?

The other thing is coming from working with human clinical trials of drugs, testing of this sort is always fraught with the "placebo effect" since the shooter knows which case were which. As a suggestion, if you really want a reasonably un-bias study, one you will need a larger sample size, more than one group (since as you know, even you shooting the cases done with one machine don't always shoot the same group size over and over again) and finally do the study in a semi-double blind fashion, which is to have another shooter hand you the round with only him knowing which group is which but not the shooter.

This^^^^^^^
we all want better, but you have to do solid testing with a lot of this stuff to truly know if its better. a double blind test with large sample sizes......and no, a couple 5 shot groups wont tell you anything imho

 

[JamesnTN]

This^^^^^^^
we all want better, but you have to do solid testing with a lot of this stuff to truly know if its better. a double blind test with large sample sizes......and no, a couple 5 shot groups wont tell you anything imho

I plan on doing a four five shot group test of each this weekend with gas annealed cases and induction annealed cases. As for blind testing I don't see where or how this serves any purpose as to if one style Annealer is better over the other if I'm shooting to my best abilities. If the gas annealed cases prove out better so be it and that'll be what it is. I'm testing for three things here. Consistent seating pressure using the 21st century press, ES and SD numbers from the Labradar and group sizes.

I can either shoot all 20 shots on one paper or I can shoot them into separate five shot groups.

 

[jlow]

I plan on doing a four five shot group test of each this weekend with gas annealed cases and induction annealed cases. As for blind testing I don't see where or how this serves any purpose as to if one style Annealer is better over the other if I'm shooting to my best abilities. If the gas annealed cases prove out better so be it and that'll be what it is. I'm testing for three things here. Consistent seating pressure using the 21st century press, ES and SD numbers from the Labradar and group sizes.

I can either shoot all 20 shots on one paper or I can shoot them into separate five shot groups.

James – it’s an unfortunate truth but this in fact has been proven over and over again in the scientific circles that a tester who knows what he is testing ends up unconsciously and un-intentionally skewing the results i.e. in your case not shooting to the best of your ability. This is why when companies submit data to the FDA for drug approval, only double-blind clinical studies results are allowed.

Notice I actually said semi-double blind in my suggestion and not double blind. A real double blind study means BOTH the doctor and the patient taking a drug does not know which is the real drug vs. a placebo. This is because if the guy who hands you the ammo can sometimes by his action/expression reveal which is which, but I really did not want to burden you with this more extreme case of blinding.

Please don’t take my word for it, and I can understand why a layman does not understand this, do a Google search for “double-blind testing”.

 

[dmoran]

This^^^^^^^
we all want better, but you have to do solid testing with a lot of this stuff to truly know if its better. a double blind test with large sample sizes......and no, a couple 5 shot groups wont tell you anything imho

If you have accurate enough rifles and accurate pet-loads for them as basis, you don't need large samples - IME
Large sample tests are costly that can be a complete waste of barrel life and components. James' own credentials and well known to having accurate and capable benchrest rifles, is enough for me to believe in his results !.!.!
Donovan

 

[jlow]

James – it’s an unfortunate truth but this in fact has been proven over and over again in the scientific circles that a tester who knows what he is testing ends up unconsciously and un-intentionally skewing the results i.e. in your case not shooting to the best of your ability. This is why when companies submit data to the FDA for drug approval, only double-blind clinical studies results are allowed.

Notice I actually said semi-double blind in my suggestion and not double blind. A real double blind study means BOTH the doctor and the patient taking a drug does not know which is the real drug vs. a placebo. This is because if the guy who hands you the ammo can sometimes by his action/expression reveal which is which, but I really did not want to burden you with this more extreme case of blinding.

Please don’t take my word for it, and I can understand why a layman does not understand this, do a Google search for “double-blind testing”.

First, none of what I have said was out of dis-respect and hopefully will not be taken as such. They are basically the same question anyone would ask not knowing your skills in annealing and just looking at the results.

In terms of the double-blind study – my impetus for this suggestion is because I too want to know the answer. I also know that doing these test takes time, effort, and resources and if making a slight change i.e. having someone hand you the ammo and having you blinded vs. you getting it out of the box gives your results so much more credence, it makes sense to suggest it.

 

[highlife]

James
Can you post some pics of annealed cases with the AMP?
Richard

 

[JamesnTN]

James
Can you post some pics of annealed cases with the AMP?
Richard

I can when I get home tonight from work

 

[dmoran]

First.......

jlow -

Question:
- how much do you have into your Bench-Source Annealer totally, with all the upgrading you've done to yours?
I know you researched hard and updated your setup to get the most repeatable and consistency you could from it, is why I'm asking you.

Thanks ahead of time,
Donovan

 

[jlow]

jlow -

Question:
- how much do you have into your Bench-Source Annealer totally, with all the upgrading you've done to yours?
I know you researched hard and updated your setup to get the most repeatable and consistency you could from it, is why I'm asking you.

Thanks ahead of time,
Donovan

Donovan – Unlike some of the other annealer where you have to buy parts specific for different calibers, there is really no upgrade when it comes to the BenchSource as it can do all the calibers. The only thing I have changed is to use a large propane tank. So I think add something like $50-$60 to the price.

 

[JamesnTN]

James
Can you post some pics of annealed cases with the AMP?
Richard

Here's a 6 BR, the one on the left is not annealed and one on the right annealed with the AMP




Next is a 6 Dasher and the one on left was annealed with gas and the right annealed with the AMP

 

[jlow]

Here's a 6 BR, the one on the left is not annealed and one on the right annealed with the AMP




Next is a 6 Dasher and the one on left was annealed with gas and the right annealed with the AMP

James – from my experience annealing and looking at your results, it is very difficult to draw much conclusion about the degree of an anneal looking at the coloration. The reason is because it depends a lot on the contaminants on the surface of the case which always exist even if they were cleaned with SS-media. So a darker anneal does not always mean more annealing.

The one input I can give you is the Dasher case annealed with gas was likely annealed too far down since your discoloration extends ½ down the body of the case, usually you only want that about ¼ or less. If you spread the flame used for annealing that far down, it will potentially start annealing the head which is always to be avoided for safety reasons.

 

[JamesnTN]

James – from my experience annealing and looking at your results, it is very difficult to draw much conclusion about the degree of an anneal looking at the coloration. The reason is because it depends a lot on the contaminants on the surface of the case which always exist even if they were cleaned with SS-media. So a darker anneal does not always mean more annealing.

The one input I can give you is the Dasher case annealed with gas was likely annealed too far down since your discoloration extends ½ down the body of the case, usually you only want that about ¼ or less. If you spread the flame used for annealing that far down, it will potentially start annealing the head which is always to be avoided for safety reasons.

When I annealed with gas I would direct the torches right at the body and shoulder junction and allow the heat to run up to the necks. This method was told to me by several guys so that's the way I did it. The heat you see ran down the body never exceeded 300* as I had Templaq on the case in that area when setting it up. So there would be no danger in doing damage to the case.
The one thing I see different with the amp over gas is it directs all the heat right on the neck. I personally like to see some on the shoulder area where it helps assist in bumping the shoulders back more consistently.

 

[highlife]

Thanks James
I wanted to compare the results to what I've been getting out of my Annie. They appear to be very similar with the uniform ring around the necks. I also would like to see it alittle further down to the neck shoulder junction, but I haven't been able to achieve that. With out getting the neck real hot.
I'll post a pic of some shehane brass I did last night with the Annie set @ 2.4 sec 12 thou neck.
Richard

 

[jlow]

When I annealed with gas I would direct the torches right at the body and shoulder junction and allow the heat to run up to the necks. This method was told to me by several guys so that's the way I did it. The heat you see ran down the body never exceeded 300* as I had Templaq on the case in that area when setting it up. So there would be no danger in doing damage to the case.
The one thing I see different with the amp over gas is it directs all the heat right on the neck. I personally like to see some on the shoulder area where it helps assist in bumping the shoulders back more consistently.

James – Good to hear that it’s safe. Yes, this method you use is also the method suggested by BenchSource in their manual which I find odd. I actually aim one at the neck and one at the middle of the shoulder. The rationale is as you suggested to spread the anneal over both the neck and shoulder as we want to get consisting sizing and bumping in those respected areas.

 

[dmoran]

Donovan – Unlike some of the other annealer where you have to buy parts specific for different calibers, there is really no upgrade when it comes to the BenchSource as it can do all the calibers. The only thing I have changed is to use a large propane tank. So I think add something like $50-$60 to the price.

I would have guessed your tank update (tank, hoses, fittings, torches, etc.) would have costed more then $50-$60 (based on all new parts of course).
Can't remember, did you also add a regulator into your setup?
How much do the Bench-Source units like yours sell for?
Donovan

 

[jlow]

I would have guessed your tank update (tank, hoses, fittings, torches, etc.) would have costed more then $50-$60 (based on all new parts of course).
Can't remember, did you also add a regulator into your setup?
How much do the Bench-Source units like yours sell for?
Donovan

Donovan – it was around that, could be $20 more but… I had the torches of course. I can get exact number and parts if you are interested but I will need to do some digging. No regulator, just the tank, Y-, and the hoses.

I got my BenchSource from Graf & Sons- see here:

http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/20450

I think the price was about that but it was a while ago.

Quick update: the Y-junction, tank and hoses was about $63... (not bad for a wild guess...) Yes, you will need torches and that will cost you about $30.

 

[JamesnTN]

I would have guessed your tank update (tank, hoses, fittings, torches, etc.) would have costed more then $50-$60 (based on all new parts of course).
Can't remember, did you also add a regulator into your setup?
How much do the Bench-Source units like yours sell for?
Donovan

Donovan you can figure roughly 670.00 plus tax and shipping on the Bench source a 20# tank propane the hoses and T to hook it all up and the torches. I didn't buy a regulator so I can't comment on that cost.

 

[dmoran]

Thanks jlow and James for the replies!.!.!

James - your $670 estimate is about the same as my math, from what I all added to it.

Donovan

 

[jlow]

Thanks jlow and James for the replies!.!.!

James - your $670 estimate is about the same as my math, from what I all added to it.

Donovan

Don't forget you will need gas!

 

[dmoran]

Don't forget you will need gas!

I'll call the gas a "wash", since the electricity to run an AMP isn't free either....lol