LEARNED FROM 20 SHOTS WITH DASHER BRASS

[Shiraz]

RCW - your needle is stuck on the record.

You cannot seem to grasp the concept that you cannot fire super hot loads on any brass out there on the FIRST firing or you will lose primer pocket strength on subsequent shots.

There are already reports of 17 firings on the new Dasher Brass with the primer pocket still good just a few posts above yours.

 

[falconpilot]

So from what I'm reading...if I buy the Norma brass, and if it happens to fit my chamber and shell holder and my extractor...I still have to fire form...

Tell me then....why don't I have to(and I'm referring to lots of other guys here as well) fire form my Norma 284 brass with a lesser load? Me and I know many others that load this brass with our normal loads, and go shoot it..as matter of fact David tried his national record with virgin brass, standard load. With all this being noted, it would stand to reason that one could and would expect the same benefits of the Dasher brass....why is there a difference? Why couldnt we expect the same performance out of Dasher brass...

I thought the whole reason for making dasher brass was so we wouldn't have to fire form, yet we are being told now that we do have to fire form if we don't want to lose the primer pockets. This loses a lot of its appeal to me for this reason alone.

 

[boltman223]

Tell me then....why don't I have to(and I'm referring to lots of other guys here as well) fire form my Norma 284 brass with a lesser load? Me and I know many others that load this brass with our normal loads, and go shoot it..as matter of fact David tried his national record with virgin brass, standard load.

So from what I'm reading...if I buy the Norma brass, and if it happens to fit my chamber and shell holder and my extractor...I still have to fire form...

Tell me then....why don't I have to(and I'm referring to lots of other guys here as well) fire form my Norma 284 brass with a lesser load? Me and I know many others that load this brass with our normal loads, and go shoot it..as matter of fact David tried his national record with virgin brass, standard load.

If he fire formed then maybe he would have longer brass life than he does .

 

[Cool Tool]

I will not point any fingers here but here it is this new brass load it up just above 6mm Br velocity there is a accuracy node there shoot it at a match an then start doing your load work an don't dwell on those velocities above 3000fps because the norma brass or the lapua brass either one wont live long at higher velocity accuracy with minimal verticle is more important I don't have a bit of problem using this brass as is good management of this brass or any brass is very important the shell holders is not that hard to deal with.
P.S.2960fps is a very accurate node here is a load at 2900fps in a pic at 300yds.

 

[Cool Tool]

P.S. that pic was 2nd firing on this brass.

 

[Shiraz]

So from what I'm reading...if I buy the Norma brass, and if it happens to fit my chamber and shell holder and my extractor...I still have to fire form...

Tell me then....why don't I have to(and I'm referring to lots of other guys here as well) fire form my Norma 284 brass with a lesser load? Me and I know many others that load this brass with our normal loads, and go shoot it..as matter of fact David tried his national record with virgin brass, standard load. With all this being noted, it would stand to reason that one could and would expect the same benefits of the Dasher brass....why is there a difference? Why couldnt we expect the same performance out of Dasher brass...

I thought the whole reason for making dasher brass was so we wouldn't have to fire form, yet we are being told now that we do have to fire form if we don't want to lose the primer pockets. This loses a lot of its appeal to me for this reason alone.

Jim - no one is saying that you cannot use this brass unless you fire-form it. What I am saying is that don't put a hot load (the kind of loads a few shooters use, and are not listed in reloading manuals as they exceed normal pressures) on the first firing. Your point exactly when say you above that David set the national record with virgin brass with a "standard" load (your word above).

I know another very well known shooter, Larry B. who has won many major matches and comes to matches with virgin brass sometimes. It is done all the time. Most of the good match shooters do not usually have a really hot load as their normal load. We all tune our guns to get the node that is a good balance between speed and accuracy.

The term "fire-form" is widely used, and often misunderstood. Old Dasher shooters use that as a term to blow out the shoulders to make Dasher brass out of whatever brass they used as the starter. Mostly this was done to get more powder in the brass. Remember that when they shoot it as a Dasher, that would be the second firing with the first firing being at a lower powder charge as they could not put the amount of powder they can now after the Dasher was formed.

The term "fire-form" is also used for making the brass identical to your chamber, and that is what I am talking about. I have explained it in past postings so I will not do so again.

Hey, this is a choice and some will critique it based on what they read, some will critique it because it affects their business as they serve old Dasher customers. In a year or so these discussions will all be moot. Either way, sales are good and people are generally ordering the new Norma Dasher shell holders as well.

 

[CaptainMal]

To me a Dasher is not a Dasher unless it's shooting 105's to 107's above 3,000 fps. SavageDasher regularly shoots his in the 3,070 fps range and really does get OVER 20 firings from his brass.

If you are going to shoot much below 3,000 fps, just stay with the BR. That works well. The purpose of the Dasher case is to get the advantages of the 40* shoulder and velocity with accuracy above 3,000 fps.

That is in no way saying you will not be able to do that with the new Norma brass. During my initial testing I got way above 3050 fps with virgin brass. Some did not show pressure signs. Some did. That's why I stopped. Have yet to get motivated for more testing and using fired brass in those tests.

Patience. I do think the Norma brass will work. At least I hope so. During my break-in testing of this new Stolle Kodiak I used old brass. Somewhere between shots 10 and 25 I found a tuner setting that gave me two literally "one hole" groups @200 yards. That was right at 3030 fps+-. Tells me this gun will and has shot. Now I need to duplicate that with the Norma brass.

Patience. There's that word again.

 

[dmoran]

Shiraz -

Have a good "tom" story to tell you:
This morning Tom put so much H4895 into one of your cases that we don't dare say how much...
But enough that he crawled under his bench for shelter when he lit it off.
The piece was 4x fired and the primer pocket took the hit with out wrecking it.

Agree with your quote:

In a year or so these discussions will all be moot.

Thanks again for bringing us 6Dasher Norma brass !.!.!
Donovan

 

[dbduff]

Obviously the dust is still settling around this issue. Thank you,Shiraz, for your efforts to provide Dasher brass for those that choose to use this round. No good deed ever goes unpunished.
D

 

[dmoran]

To me a Dasher is not a Dasher unless it's shooting 105's to 107's above 3,000 fps. SavageDasher regularly shoots his in the 3,070 fps range and really does get OVER 20 firings from his brass.

So your saying that SavageDasher is pushing them new to 3070-fps on there first fire-forming?

Myself I've been shooting Lapua made 6Dasher's in the 3025 to 3075 nodes for +12-years, and many others are as well. But not on brand new brass, only after they've been fire-formed or they will not live.
Even then if I want a real good living set from the Lapua's, I have learned to only hit them to mid-2900's the 2nd firing. Have had well beyond 20-firings on several sets over the years.

Donovan

 

[Pappy42]

You pays your money, and you makes your choice. For me and me only; it's a no brainer: No expanding necks on BR brass, then sizeing them back to hold the bullet. No loss of the occasional case during fire forming. Greatly reduced chance of blanking a primer. No expense, or effort to hydro form. What's not to love about "load and shoot" factory Dasher brass compared to fire forming BR brass?

I guess my question is, what in the heck is the point of the "fun, load'em and shoot'em" crowd? Get her done and move on; there is no such thing as a free lunch!

 

[BoydAllen]

Long before this brass was even a thought, the idea avoiding the highest pressure loads, for initial firings has been discussed... in the short range Benchrest game, for Lapua brass. Fortunately there are several tuning nodes that can give excellent accuracy, and the one that is just below the top is not that much slower. Being an observer I have to ask. Is it practical to expect to be able to hit the commonly reported node that is around 2,950 (with 105- 108 gr bullets) with straight BRs? The reason that I ask is that I seem to remember reading reports from shooters who found this difficult to achieve, based both on case capacity and pressure. Bring me up to date. I am following this because I am thinking about having a barrel chambered for my bench rifle (that has a universal bolt face). Another question that I will sneak in is how the barrel life of a Dasher compares with that of a straight BR.

 

[dmoran]

Long before.........

Boyd -

2950-fps can be a velocity challenging desire from a 6BR. High 2800's to low 2900's is more common - IME

As to barrel life from 6BR to 6Dasher, in my experience the 6BR typically will yield noticeably more, and in some circumstances substantially.

Now with the Shiraz/Norma 6Dasher and for those re-chambering to take full advantage of its longer neck, is the "$10,000-dollar question" (... lol) that myself will be eager to hear about in the future !.!.!
I tend to believe less throat erosion will be had with long neck 6Dasher chambers.
Donovan

 

[Kyle Schultz]

I tend to believe less throat erosion will be had with long neck 6Dasher chambers.

Donovan/Anybody:

Why would a longer neck help mitigate throat erosion? Not questioning... just trying to understand. TIA!

 

[dmoran]

Kyle -
Couple of my own inputs to why:

1. some of the hot gases from combustion will initially come in contact with the additional longer neck surface before barrel steel.
2. the venting gases will be more aligned to the bore and make less turbulent contact to the barrel steel, from the increased neck length.
3. for the same 2 reasons above, not only less hot gas contact to the steel but also less carbon aspect (carbon fouling is an abrasive in its self).

Donovan

 

[Cool Tool]

Kyle -
Couple of my own inputs to why:

1. some of the hot gases from combustion will initially come in contact with the additional longer neck surface before barrel steel.
2. the venting gases will be more aligned to the bore and make less turbulent contact to the barrel steel, from the increased neck length.
3. for the same 2 reasons above, not only less hot gas contact to the steel but also less carbon aspect (carbon fouling is an abrasive in its self).

Donovan

Donovan
My dasher is with full length case I will keep you in the loop as far as throat life after 17 teen firings primer pockets are still fair.

 

[CJ6]

I think there will be more than a few reamers made (modified)to tweak to the Norma-Dasher brass....Just like the PPC.

 

[6xcshooter]

I like the new dasher brass in my rifle it shoots better than my formed lapua brass. . no problems with the primer pockets, shot some pretty heavy loads with them, sill holding up. give it high marks. i ordered more.

 

[CaptainMal]

6XC... What's "heavy loads"?

Never saw or heard of a primer pocket problem. Seems they are good. someone spread a rumor and maybe others ran with it Primer pockets are good.

Curious what kind of results you got to call the loads "heavy". I was hoping to get my normal 3,030 fps with 105's, no pressure signs and the new brass. That is not the case. Still waiting to find out just what I can get saftely with no pressure signs and the new cases. Then, at the same time, I will try to get my 3030 fps. with some of my once-fired cases. Thursday I am taking portable reloading equipment to a range and plan on spending some time with those two goals in mind.

Donovan. ??? Savage Dasher shoots Lapua cases long after fire forming at the 3070 fps. That has nothing to do with me or any of my shooting, unless it's by accident in testing. He uses H4350 in quantities I cannot even get into my Lapua cases that will allow a bullet to seat and hold.

 

[rcw3]

RCW - your needle is stuck on the record.

You cannot seem to grasp the concept that you cannot fire super hot loads on any brass out there on the FIRST firing or you will lose primer pocket strength on subsequent shots.

There are already reports of 17 firings on the new Dasher Brass with the primer pocket still good just a few posts above yours.

Shiraz

I try to get to the truth of situations, some find that upsetting and some find that refreshing - - it all depends.

Maybe I "cannot seem to grasp" some things - - but I have never been an advocate of "super hot loads", nor have I been a person who shoots "super hot loads" out of the Dasher (as is suggested in the posting above). For years I ran 31 gr of H4895 or 32 gr of N140 (or RL15 or Varget) out of the Dasher (and also the BRX) with the 105-108 gr bullets with no issues - - got good brass life and great accuracy - - normally ran around 2900 fps out of a 30" barrel. So I guess if you consider them "super hot loads", then that's the issue.

Instead of criticizing the testing and feedback some of us are providing on this new brass situation, why not provide your recommended loads with this new Norma brass that you consider appropriate with the brass and the chamber reamer you sell for it?

Be well and prosper in your business!

Robert