Old School 264 update

[q2hunter]

A while back, I posted some questions pertaining to a 81' model 70 .264 win mag I had picked up and was working on. For a factory rifle, other than a bed and free float job I did, I've got it shooting pretty good.

Shot this nice little group at 100yd Sunday evening.



Then this at 284yrds. Why 284yrds....lol.....I cant get 300yrds without being too close to sky line for comfort at my little range. The next hill over puts me at 460yrds which I have a gong there. That is scheduled for my next bench session. My first two are in the same hole, and I actually thought I'd missed the entire target. Shot the 3rd one and then went to the target and received a pleasant surprise. The orange is a 3/4 bull on a 6" shoot n see. The group is right at 1" center to center. Better than I can do, but since it was a wallet group I pulled the target and put a new one up.


My question: As you can see, Im a bit right. I shot 5 shots at the next target, no pics, nothing to brag about, but was a 3.5" group with 4 shots and one flyer that made it a 5" over all. The average of all 8 shots is about 2" right. No wind flags, but it was late evening just as the sun went down, and as dead calm as I could call dead calm. Would you guys bump the zero if this repeated on my next session? Would you see what the 460 looked like then consider? I do have a flag at the 460 so at least I'll know what its doing at the bench and at the target. Not going to shoot it unless I get another evening like Sunday. I've reproduced the 100yrd group and zero 3 times. I understand things really start showing up at extended distances. Could there be something else causing this also?

Thanks!

 

[2506]

You may not have your scope perfectly level. It could be some spin drift. It could be how you are holding the rifle. It could be distortion caused by heat or in the glass of your scope or a combination of all. If your POI moves further right at 460 then it is probably in the set up. I would correct the POI at long range and see what happens at short range. From your 284 group it looks like you are only about 1 or 2 clicks off.

 

[q2hunter]

Admittedly, I am not a great shooter. Im working on it though. Front and rear bags, and two dry fires before each shot to attempt to make sure Im settled back into bags as best as possible before each shot. My scope has parallax adjustment, 6x18x44 Vortex, which just recently I truly learned how to adjust it instead of just putting front focus on the yardage mark. Trigger is not a great bench trigger but is what I would consider a good hunting trigger, about 3lbs. Yesterday evening I repeated this with a 5 shot group at 100 and 5 shot at 284. At 100 I felt I was just a hair left, and my 284 group was much more centered. I didn't touch the zero. So I would assume something was a skew with a wind, or heat, or something on one of the two days. Although I waited until 7pm to shoot again, just like the other day, it was 8-10 degrees hotter yesterday. The more I learn about shooting, the more I understand that I don't know much!

I don't have competition or specialty dies either. Im noticing that about .002-.003 shoulder bump variation is the best I've been able to do. I've got my standard RCBS die set to target a .002 bump, some brass Im one or two thousands under, some one or two over target. Maybe lube inconsistency? Maybe brass hardness inconsistency? I've also just recently started annealing, maybe that's inconsistent on my end? About the same for bullet seating, I see .004-.005 variation on my seating depth. Again, Im not a competition shooter, just an average joe hunter, but its sure fun trying to squeeze the most out of my rifles. Some just shoot, this ones a little picky.

 

[wapiti25]

Annealing will help make the shoulder bump more uniform. I set windage zero at long range, the drift to either direction can be the barrel which you cannot control.

 

[q2hunter]

Annealing will help make the shoulder bump more uniform. I set windage zero at long range, the drift to either direction can be the barrel which you cannot control.

I had heard that, but don't understand it and didn't know if that was factual or a wives tale. So you are saying that if this is case, if I zero my windage at a longer distance, I may be off a little at 100, which is better to be off a little there, then off a lot down range correct?

I'd sure like to shoot a heavier bullet in this gun, but with a 1-9 twist, I cant get 130s or 140s to shoot worth a darn at 100. Just about anything I have put down the tube at 120gr have been decent, and the 120gr Nosler Ballistic Tip has been the best. That's what Im working with now. Sierra Pro Hunters were decent, as were Barnes TAC TX, but the copper fouling on the barns caused issues quickly. After cleaning, it took 3 foulers, and only maintained a group for 6-8 shots at best, then started opening back up. The Noslers, I can put 25-30 before noticing any opening of the grouping.

 

[wapiti25]

Yes. You are fighting a factory barrel, they are cheap and very a lot in smoothnes, and size. Most barrels have some curve in the bore, where the barrel is pointing will effect where the bullet hits on the target. If the curve ended up going to the right when threaded and chambered that would make bullets go farther to the right with more distance/range. This is why some gunsmiths will clock the new barrel so the bore curve goes up or down when they set the headspace. You may help the barrel by using JB bore cleaner to smooth the surface, shooting and cleaning often may be your friend. Be aware that the 264 win and other high velocity 6.5's have a short barrel life, about 1000 rounds. If you use a coated bullet such as "moly" that may slow down the fouling. The 1-9 is starting to be marginal using a 130 gr bullet, bullet length is the deciding factor as to when the bullet is fully stable. Barrels may not be a full 1-9 such as 1-9.7" which would not be as good with longer bullets. Go to the Berger web site and look at what they recommend for their bullets and the bullet weights, they make some long bullets for each weight. Long bullets have a better BC if the shape is correct.

 

[q2hunter]

Yes. You are fighting a factory barrel, they are cheap and very a lot in smoothnes, and size. Most barrels have some curve in the bore, where the barrel is pointing will effect where the bullet hits on the target. If the curve ended up going to the right when threaded and chambered that would make bullets go farther to the right with more distance/range. This is why some gunsmiths will clock the new barrel so the bore curve goes up or down when they set the headspace. You may help the barrel by using JB bore cleaner to smooth the surface, shooting and cleaning often may be your friend. Be aware that the 264 win and other high velocity 6.5's have a short barrel life, about 1000 rounds. If you use a coated bullet such as "moly" that may slow down the fouling. The 1-9 is starting to be marginal using a 130 gr bullet, bullet length is the deciding factor as to when the bullet is fully stable. Barrels may not be a full 1-9 such as 1-9.7" which would not be as good with longer bullets. Go to the Berger web site and look at what they recommend for their bullets and the bullet weights, they make some long bullets for each weight. Long bullets have a better BC if the shape is correct.

Thanks bro! Good stuff. I've been through the bore smoothing with Iosso. When I bought the gun the barrel was fouled BADLY, like possibly NEVER been cleaned. Took me a month and half of shooting and cleaning, with which each cleaning the grouping improved, and then someone in another thread here suggested the Iosso. That really helped! Guess I never thought of a curved barrel...WOW. I think it also has some signs of throat erosion. I use the Hornady jig for finding the lands, and the bullet is a little "squishy" at the lands. I can feel the riflings and then go another couple thousands before its solid. Its a beautiful gun, and I have/am considering rebarreling. Not that I think this one is shot out, but more so just a new barrel to burn and keep the original for keeps sake as it is a fairly rare model to find in such condition as this one. That's really the only reason I did buy it, I have several of the late 70s early 80s model 70 XTR "black tips". Also considering a build, something I can plink on the bench with and still hunt with. That would urge me to put this beautiful thing up and not shoot it anymore....lol. But first.....I MUST kill something with it!

 

[wapiti25]

I'm glad you want to hunt with your rifle. The old barrel can be removed and set in the closet and reinstalled at a later date. Their are two barrel makers that seem to deliver at a mid-range cost, Benchmark and X caliber. I have looked at both with a bore scope and they look good, I just bought from X caliber 6mm barrel to chamber up and shoot. Both company"s seem to deliver a good product at a fair price and they do have good reviews. If you were going to compete I would recommend Krieger or Bartlien but they cost a lot more. Good luck and enjoy your rifle.

 

[effendude]

I zero my rifles to shoot about 1" left at 100 yards. This offsets the observed spin drift of a bullet at farther distances to a certain extent.

Scott

 

[q2hunter]

I zero my rifles to shoot about 1" left at 100 yards. This offsets the observed spin drift of a bullet at farther distances to a certain extent.

Scott

Scott, are you saying that the "spin drift" is predictable in most rifles due to the direction of bullet rotation? The only other rifle I have that I have remotely seriously put any time into shooting longer distances is a 300 win mag in this exact same model rifle. I've shot it out to 600yrds and haven't seen this effect. My longest shot has been with this rifle, 582 yards, perfectly placed behind the shoulder of a nice mature 9pt. With that said, I do have a couple others (.270 win, 6.5x55 swede, 7mm rem) that I have shot to 300. They don't shoot as well as this .264 and the .300 so I wouldn't consider shooting or even taking them to a situation where a shot over 300yrds would be possible. They group plenty good enough to take a whitetail at 300, but not well enough to split hairs on zero for longer ranges than 300yrds. Thanks, good stuff for a feller like me that's still on the rookie side.

 

[q2hunter]

I'm glad you want to hunt with your rifle. The old barrel can be removed and set in the closet and reinstalled at a later date. Their are two barrel makers that seem to deliver at a mid-range cost, Benchmark and X caliber. I have looked at both with a bore scope and they look good, I just bought from X caliber 6mm barrel to chamber up and shoot. Both company"s seem to deliver a good product at a fair price and they do have good reviews. If you were going to compete I would recommend Krieger or Bartlien but they cost a lot more. Good luck and enjoy your rifle.

Thanks for the input on the barrels! Quick question on the annealing. I am using a small propane torch to anneal with, how long should the cases be exposed to the torch flame? I would suppose really my only indicator would be watching the neck/shoulder area for color. My first couple annealing batches, I have let the neck just start to turn cherry red. As soon as I seen it begin to turn, I drop it in a bowl of water. Do you say that is about right? Too much or too little?

 

[wapiti25]

I also watch the case and count the time in my head. In your case about 6- to 8 sec., most people say do not let them get red. I started many yrs ago (1980's) to anneal by setting the case in about a 1/4-3/8" of water and in a dark area watch for just getting red then knock over in the water. That method came from the NRA loading book. It worked very well for me, many firings and no neck cracks or problems. I did not realize that annealing will help with the shoulder bump at that time. Now I try to watch the color change just below the shoulder. I prefer to not turn the torch up to max heat, part of the annealing process is temp and time so a lower flame works better for me to look and decide how long to heat for. every time you fire the torch you have a "new" heat setting so I just go by what I see. Water is not helping the anneal but will let you keep heat out of the head/mid case area. Never let the case head/lower body get discolored, that would make an unsafe piece of brass. I have a pan with an old towel that is very wet for the brass to drop on, this keeps water from being inside the case and the extra drying time before loading. I use Imperial Dry Neck lube after annealing which helps if you use an expander and lubes the bullet/neck area. You may feel a difference in sizing, neck drag on the expander and bullet seating after annealing. Uniform neck tension from annealing helps make bullet release more uniform and better groups on the target at longer range. Annealing will make the brass last longer. I hope this helps. Best of luck

 

[q2hunter]

I also watch the case and count the time in my head. In your case about 6- to 8 sec., most people say do not let them get red. I started many yrs ago (1980's) to anneal by setting the case in about a 1/4-3/8" of water and in a dark area watch for just getting red then knock over in the water. That method came from the NRA loading book. It worked very well for me, many firings and no neck cracks or problems. I did not realize that annealing will help with the shoulder bump at that time. Now I try to watch the color change just below the shoulder. I prefer to not turn the torch up to max heat, part of the annealing process is temp and time so a lower flame works better for me to look and decide how long to heat for. every time you fire the torch you have a "new" heat setting so I just go by what I see. Water is not helping the anneal but will let you keep heat out of the head/mid case area. Never let the case head/lower body get discolored, that would make an unsafe piece of brass. I have a pan with an old towel that is very wet for the brass to drop on, this keeps water from being inside the case and the extra drying time before loading. I use Imperial Dry Neck lube after annealing which helps if you use an expander and lubes the bullet/neck area. You may feel a difference in sizing, neck drag on the expander and bullet seating after annealing. Uniform neck tension from annealing helps make bullet release more uniform and better groups on the target at longer range. Annealing will make the brass last longer. I hope this helps. Best of luck

Thanks brother! Makes me feel better about what Im doing. Sounds like Im about right, I do turn the torch down, I try not to let them get cherry red, just to the point where I start to see them begin to turn. I actually hold the case head in my fingers per the video I watched. It said just as you start to feel heat drop it in the water. You are right about the water in the cases, that's a pain! My process is to anneal, get the water out and wipe cases, tumble, then decap/resize. I'd like to avoid tumbling EVERY time, but if I anneal every time and get them wet I kinda feel I need to just to make sure they are dry. I will try the wet towel, that's a good idea. My first couple annealing batches have proven to help a lot with shoulder bump consistency. They are holding a +-.001 now vs the +-.002. Just to keep everything consistent, I think Im going to anneal every firing. I don't shoot a tremendous amount, so its not like I load hundreds of rounds each loading session. Very rarely load more than 25 rounds or so per sitting, and I thoroughly enjoy doing it and trying to be meticulous about it. Quality over quantity right....LOL!