• This Forum is for adults 18 years of age or over. By continuing to use this Forum you are confirming that you are 18 or older. No content shall be viewed by any person under 18 in California.

Expanders prior to seating...

Judd

Gold $$ Contributor
Who sells custom size expanders? I know K&M, PMA, etc but I'm wanting to do some experimenting neck sizing immediately prior to seating. They don't publish the size and only appear to offer one size to match their neck turning pilots. Also, I know I will need to size my necks a little smaller than normal and then use the expander.... Question, how do I determine the expander size I need? Measure inside diameter of sized case is what I'm thinking but wondered if I should be measuring the pressure ring on the bullets.

I know guys are doing this but the only guy I know who does custom grinds his own expanders. I figure someone out there sells them?
 
Sinclair sells expander mandrels that are 0.001" under bullet diameter. I know of no one selling mandrels of a range of diameters to set neck tension. I think you will have to have them custom ground. K&M will likely do that.

Edit- K&M does sell incrementally sized mandrels for controlling neck tension. It is a custom order item but only $27.
 
Last edited:
Why do you feel you need to expand after neck sizing? Just pick the proper size bushing and neck size then seat.
Short answer: Because a couple of bad things can happen between when I neck size and when I seat my bullets.

Long answer: My competition loads are shot one at a time in a bolt gun without an ejector. I collect the brass in a clean towel so I'm comfortable lubing the non-dirty brass, neck sizing, and de-priming as the first step in the next reloading cycle. Of course, the case neck ID (and subsequent neck tension) depends on both the selected sizing die AND the neck thickness. Anyone who pays attention to such things knows that neck thickness can vary a little bit from one side of the neck to the other and vary from one case to another even if they're from the same batch, neck turned or not.

I also body size, trim, chamfer, or otherwise process the brass as necessary depending on the condition of the brass and the intended end use.

Then I clean it by wet SS tumbling and anneal (every time) after that. So far I haven't done any individual handling and only one cleaning process. Some of these procedures involve shaking the brass, dumping them into and out of various buckets, tumbling, and so on. So there are several opportunities for the case necks to become out of round along with the possibility of inconsistent neck ID depending on the exact neck thickness of each particular piece of brass.

So, during the priming process I insert a mandrel sized to .2225 which gives me a round neck with a uniform ID. Any irregularities are forced to the outside where they don't matter. A conventional neck sizing procedure forces any irregularities or sizing errors to the inside where they can possibly effect the bullet hold (neck tension to us barbarians). I plan on a neck tension of about .0015 more or less, but whatever it actually is, it is as consistent as I can make it because of the expanding mandrel.
 
A conventional neck sizing procedure forces any irregularities or sizing errors to the inside where they can possibly effect the bullet hold (neck tension to us barbarians).

^^^this

Versus spending the time turning necks and dealing with all of that (which I have)...I want to prove or disprove to myself this method could accomplish the same thing...because by sizing the neck via the mandrel I'm actually cleaning up the bullet's gripping surface.

That's my thought, at this point that is all it is. Bottom line is I'm tired of turning necks, it's a major PIA for me and I know there are situations where I have too but I want to see if this could become an option for me in some instances.

Thanks everyone for the information.
 
Using a hydro-seater press from 21st century, I've found that using an expander before seating "cuts off" the tails of the seating force distribution.

I have not experimented enough yet to tell if it shows up on target.
 
FWIW I have several Sinclair and Lyman M expander mandrels. Here are the measured diameters:

Sinclair "Oversize" Expanders:

22: 0.2232
24: 0.2422
25: 0.2561

Lyman 'M' Expanders:

24: 0.2418
25: 0.2548

From these you might try to reasonably guess what the dimensions of other sizes might be. But you can't be sure until you measure one, since the relationship to bullet diameter varies between nominal sizes.
 
^^^this

Versus spending the time turning necks and dealing with all of that (which I have)...I want to prove or disprove to myself this method could accomplish the same thing...because by sizing the neck via the mandrel I'm actually cleaning up the bullet's gripping surface.

That's my thought, at this point that is all it is. Bottom line is I'm tired of turning necks, it's a major PIA for me and I know there are situations where I have too but I want to see if this could become an option for me in some instances.

Thanks everyone for the information.
One of the reasons, I don't use an expander is that it can pull a neck out of concentricity, especially if the brass has been softened by annealing. There is also the factor of proper alignment of your reloading press ram and the die threads and die. So while you're trying to eliminate one variable, you're introducing another. IMHO, there is no substitute for neck turning your cases for consistent bullet tension. Check your concentricity and see how this plays into your fact finding mission.
 
One of the reasons, I don't use an expander is that it can pull a neck out of concentricity,

I believe the expanders under discussion are not pulled through the neck, they are pushed through using a dedicated expander die, typically with a semi-floating mandrel. Your observation may still apply, but just in case there was any misunderstanding.
 
One of the reasons, I don't use an expander is that it can pull a neck out of concentricity, especially if the brass has been softened by annealing. There is also the factor of proper alignment of your reloading press ram and the die threads and die. So while you're trying to eliminate one variable, you're introducing another. IMHO, there is no substitute for neck turning your cases for consistent bullet tension. Check your concentricity and see how this plays into your fact finding mission.
The neck shoulder area of the brass is the most vulnerable to change. Expanding with the use of a ball or a push in expanded can do more harm than good. The case is not supported with the die . Consistent neck tension is done with neck thickness and elasticity of the brass - And or annealing.
Larry
 
I made a die and use gauge pins. They are ground really smooth and come in a variety of sizes. Matt

IMO Matt nailed it.
I have been looking for something that I could buy that would enable me to use pin gages. Looks like Matt has already done it.

So, during the priming process I insert a mandrel sized to .2225 which gives me a round neck with a uniform ID. Any irregularities are forced to the outside where they don't matter. A conventional neck sizing procedure forces any irregularities or sizing errors to the inside where they can possibly effect the bullet hold (neck tension to us barbarians). I plan on a neck tension of about .0015 more or less, but whatever it actually is, it is as consistent as I can make it because of the expanding mandrel.

IMO this is dead on. I am making my own mandrels to do this, but using XX pin gages would be a huge leap forward in precision neck tension.

Kindest regards,

Joe
 
Here is a source for incrementally sized expanders that work on our dies or Redding dies. It will save a step in your process if these work for you.

http://www.whiddengunworks.com/product/expander-ball-kits-and-sets/

I've had good luck with the Redding aftermarket floating carbide ball in the past... I size my cases just enough to where the ball just 'kisses' on the way out, rather than any kind of ugly dragging where the neck or shoulder could get pulled out of alignment. Eliminates the vast majority of the complaints lodged against using an expander ball.

More recently I've been using an expander mandrel... the mandrel for my K&M is a little bigger than I'd like, resulting in not quite enough neck tension for my comfort level given that I have to ship ammo ahead and/or fly with some of it. Instead I've been using a Lyman 'M' die... works very well, and fairly cheap to boot (for those who care).

It's good to know that the Whidden expanders will fit Redding dies as well as their own... might have to look into getting a set for experimenting with.
 
The neck shoulder area of the brass is the most vulnerable to change. Expanding with the use of a ball or a push in expanded can do more harm than good. The case is not supported with the die . Consistent neck tension is done with neck thickness and elasticity of the brass - And or annealing.
Larry
You make some good points. True, the softer neck is easier to distort than the case head and the kind of mandrel most of us use doesn't support the case. However, it should be remembered that the process is in no way comparable to the kind of change we make to a case when we size the neck or bump the shoulder.

In my situation at least, the neck size die is carefully selected to provide a neck size only very slightly smaller than the mandrel. This happens early on in the process. Later, just before seating, the mandrel gets inserted with very little resistance because the neck is expanded so slightly that you can barely feel the process even without any lube.

The process might be better called "uniforming" because it takes care of any out-of-round condition caused by handling the brass during cleaning and other batch processing. It also tends to uniform the ID which will be very slightly different between a case with a neck thickness of .01200 when compared to a case with a neck thickness of .01213 even though both have been processed with the same neck sizing bushing. I neck turn all my brass for uniformity, but that doesn't make them PERFECTLY uniform despite the fact that my 21st Century lathe is a pretty nice piece of equipment.

If constant neck tension is the goal, then it might be obtainable if all my brass has the exact same neck thickness, the exact same hardness after annealing, the exact number of sizing cycles, and if they get gently handled during the reloading process. I try to perform high quality reloading, but I don't pretend to be perfect at it especially the "gentle handling" part since I don't like to treat my cases as though they're made from nitro glycerin. That's why I think inserting a uniforming mandrel down the neck just before seating is a worthwhile step, at least for me.

It is a very subtle process intended only to iron out any tiny inconsistencies between one case an another. It is NOT the same thing as something that might be called "inside-out-neck-sizing".

The mandrel in my die floats and I can't detect any difference in concentrically caused by using it.

But the proof of the pudding is in the eating (as a few people might say). My testing has shown a slight but measurable improvement in Mean Radius and an even more significant improvement in ES and SD since I've been using the uniforming mandrel. Plus I'm now winning a good share of 600yd F/TR and BR matches; something I wasn't enjoying in my pre-mandrel days. Or perhaps it's because of my lucky underwear. ;)
 
Judd,
Let's talk Sat. I have had custom ones made by Impax or Dayton Progress in the past. Just takes a little CAD work and $. I have them for 6.5mm and .308. Haven't ordered any for 6mm yet. If we can come up with sizes that we want we can order together and save some $. They are made of M2 toolsteel at about 62 H Rockwell C and finish ground to very exact size & superb finish. Important to me bc i don't want to lube, as it's the last thing i do b4 priming. I'll try to remember to bring one to Coolidge.
 

Upgrades & Donations

This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.


Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.

You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.


To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.

Forum statistics

Threads
166,268
Messages
2,215,184
Members
79,506
Latest member
Hunt99elk
Back
Top