Just starting - need advice

[Jimbobbilly]

Just joined Accurate Shooter today. I started doing 1000 yard shooting about a year ago using a Rock River Arms LAR 8 (AR 10 style gun) with a 26" bull barrel. The best it would do was a 4" group at 1000 yards using a Harris bipod and a NF NXS 8-32 scope. At Christmas I bought a Savage Model 12 F/TR. It will shoot a 4 shot group 2 1/2" also had a 10 shot group smaller than a tennis ball.
All the old timers I shoot with say a 168 gr 308 won't travel 1000 yds. They all recommend I use a 180 to 210 gr bullet. John Whiddon a multi time national champ's favorite cartridge is a 105 GR 243.

What is the best to use? Heavy or light? I've worked up two 308 loads using a 155 smk going 3145 fps and a 175 gr smk going 2930 fps.

I'm looking to get a new rear bag. I see some bags advertised that weigh over 25 # but then see all the products listed to make the rifle slide over the bag. Wouldn't it be better to have the rifle 'stick' to the bag to absorb the recoil?

As you can see all this is confusing to a newcomer. Any advice would be appreciated.

 

[boltfluter]

Welcome Jim,
A wealth of knowledgeable shooters on this site that are very generous with their hard earned knowledge. I would think the 175 is the way to go. Someone with more .308 experience will be along shortly .

Paul

www.boltfluting.com

 

[Jimbobbilly]

Welcome Jim,
A wealth of knowledgeable shooters on this site that are very generous with their hard earned knowledge. I would think the 175 is the way to go. Someone with more .308 experience will be along shortly .

Paul

www.boltfluting.com

Thanks Paul. My Savage is a 1:12 twist. Berger says I should use their 155.5 or 168 gr bullets. I have shot with a current army sniper stationed at Ft. Benning. He says they shoot a 175 gr SMK with a 11.25 twist barrel. It has been so windy when I shoot I haven't been able to determine which gives the best result consistently. When I get a great group the fellows say 'let's see you repeat it'!! I agree the heavier bullet would carry farther.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

I love Savage factory rifle shooters...
Whats a 4 shot group? If you can shoot a 10 shot group at 1K smaller than a tennis ball, why would you change anything? Gotta be a world record rifle...

 

[6MMsteve]

U just started I would be at every match kicking but with that grouping

 

[XBBR Shooter]

Just joined Accurate Shooter today. I started doing 1000 yard shooting about a year ago using a Rock River Arms LAR 8 (AR 10 style gun) with a 26" bull barrel. The best it would do was a 4" group at 1000 yards using a Harris bipod and a NF NXS 8-32 scope. At Christmas I bought a Savage Model 12 F/TR. It will shoot a 4 shot group 2 1/2" also had a 10 shot group smaller than a tennis ball.
All the old timers I shoot with say a 168 gr 308 won't travel 1000 yds. They all recommend I use a 180 to 210 gr bullet. John Whiddon a multi time national champ's favorite cartridge is a 105 GR 243.

What is the best to use? Heavy or light? I've worked up two 308 loads using a 155 smk going 3145 fps and a 175 gr smk going 2930 fps.

I'm looking to get a new rear bag. I see some bags advertised that weigh over 25 # but then see all the products listed to make the rifle slide over the bag. Wouldn't it be better to have the rifle 'stick' to the bag to absorb the recoil?

As you can see all this is confusing to a newcomer. Any advice would be appreciated.

How the world has changed...

I remember back in 1976, when Louise DiVito set a world's record at Williamsport PA, of 7.6" @ 1,000 yards with a monster bolt gun...

... and now, newbees are shooting groups 1/2 that size with semi-auto rifles.

I'm feelin' old(-ish)

The 168 SMK is a poor choice for 1,000, but the 155 SMK and 175 SMK are fine - the 168 is a very old design with a tiny 13 degree boat tail - the new designs have long, 9 degree boat tails.

 

[Jimbobbilly]

How the world has changed...

I remember back in 1976, when Louise DiVito set a world's record at Williamsport PA, of 7.6" @ 1,000 yards with a monster bolt gun...

... and now, newbees are shooting groups 1/2 that size with semi-auto rifles.

I'm feelin' old(-ish)

The 168 SMK is a poor choice for 1,000, but the 155 SMK and 175 SMK are fine - the 168 is a very old design with a tiny 13 degree boat tail - the new designs have long, 9 degree boat tails.

I'll try to figure out how to post pictures.

 

[boltman223]

If it was me I'd be trying the 185 juggernauts first.

In my experience you don't want the the rifle sticking in the bag.

you might want to back your load down, 2930 fps with 175's seems way fast and may be at pressures that are going to cause problems, at least compared to what I've seen

 

[XBBR Shooter]

I'll try to figure out how to post pictures.

It is soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo easy! (Even "Moi" can do it )

Several ways, but the easiest way is:

1 - Go to the picture you want to post. (It should be 800 bytes wide or less, but I have posted 1,000 byte wide pics)

2 - "Right click" the right button on your mouse, or pad. when the drop down menu appears, choose and LEFT click "Copy image".

3 - Now go to your post here... place the cursor where you want the picture to be in with your text.

4 - Hit the "right" mouse button again, and when the drop down menu appears, choose "Paste" and hit the LEFT mouse button.

5 - Poofie, it is magic.

 

[Shynloco]

..... I have shot with a current army sniper stationed at Ft. Benning. He says they shoot a 175 gr SMK with a 11.25 twist barrel. It has been so windy when I shoot I haven't been able to determine which gives the best result consistently.......

Buy that man a steak dinner and get to know him alot better so you can pick his brain. Learn to read wind once you find your load. And yes the 168's won't get it at that distance, so use 175's as a minimum and possibly even heavier, depending on what your rifle gives you. Consider that Sniper is probably shooting an M25 that's been worked so don't expect unrealistic results from your civilian rifle that simply can't keep up.

Alex

 

[Jimbobbilly]

Buy that man a steak dinner and get to know him alot better so you can pick his brain. Learn to read wind once you find your load. And yes the 168's won't get it at that distance, so use 175's as a minimum and possibly even heavier, depending on what your rifle gives you. Consider that Sniper is probably shooting an M25 that's been worked so don't expect unrealistic results from your civilian rifle that simply can't keep up.

Alex

 

[Jimbobbilly]

View attachment 983487 View attachment 983488 View attachment 983489

Pictures of Savage model 12 F/TR 1000 yds and bottom photo Rock River Arms LAR 8 1000 yds

 

[Jimbobbilly]

If it was me I'd be trying the 185 juggernauts first.

In my experience you don't want the the rifle sticking in the bag.

you might want to back your load down, 2930 fps with 175's seems way fast and may be at pressures that are going to cause problems, at least compared to what I've seen

I am not exceeding Hogdon's load data but I will try backing the load down. Thanks

 

[walt willis]

Just joined Accurate Shooter today. I started doing 1000 yard shooting about a year ago using a Rock River Arms LAR 8 (AR 10 style gun) with a 26" bull barrel. The best it would do was a 4" group at 1000 yards using a Harris bipod and a NF NXS 8-32 scope. At Christmas I bought a Savage Model 12 F/TR. It will shoot a 4 shot group 2 1/2" also had a 10 shot group smaller than a tennis ball.
All the old timers I shoot with say a 168 gr 308 won't travel 1000 yds. They all recommend I use a 180 to 210 gr bullet. John Whiddon a multi time national champ's favorite cartridge is a 105 GR 243.

What is the best to use? Heavy or light? I've worked up two 308 loads using a 155 smk going 3145 fps and a 175 gr smk going 2930 fps.

I'm looking to get a new rear bag. I see some bags advertised that weigh over 25 # but then see all the products listed to make the rifle slide over the bag. Wouldn't it be better to have the rifle 'stick' to the bag to absorb the recoil?

As you can see all this is confusing to a newcomer. Any advice would be appreciated.

I did a baseball size group out to 920 yards or 800 meters, with a NM M-14 iron sights and that is the same as a .308. Not sure if my CZ-550 could do as well yet. My old friend Carlos Hathcock told me to try the 175gr BTHP in .308 for the longer shots. He would be impressed with your grouping at 1,000 yards. The angle of drop out past 700 yards is rather steep for a .308 and even more so if you go to a larger bullet. The 50 BMG is inherently 2.5 times more accurate then a .308 because of the extra weight. You may be able to push the range out to 1 and a half miles with that round.
It sounds like you found the sweet spot load to match your rifle? May I ask why powder? It's been a while that I've been out of the game:

 

[Jimbobbilly]

I did a baseball size group out to 920 yards or 800 meters, with a NM M-14 iron sights and that is the same as a .308. Not sure if my CZ-550 could do as well yet. My old friend Carlos Hathcock told me to try the 175gr BTHP in .308 for the longer shots. He would be impressed with your grouping at 1,000 yards. The angle of drop out past 700 yards is rather steep for a .308 and even more so if you go to a larger bullet. The 50 BMG is inherently 2.5 times more accurate then a .308 because of the extra weight. You may be able to push the range out to 1 and a half miles with that round.
It sounds like you found the sweet spot load to match your rifle? May I ask why powder? It's been a while that I've been out of the game:

I am using 45.3 gr IMR 4064 for the 175 gr Tipped SMKs (2930 fps) and 47.0 gr for the 155 gr Tipped SMKs (3145 fps). I wanted to get the 175s going as fast as I could so they would remain stable out to 1000 yards. I am loading the bullets .020" off the lands.

 

[Jimbobbilly]

I love Savage factory rifle shooters...
Whats a 4 shot group? If you can shoot a 10 shot group at 1K smaller than a tennis ball, why would you change anything? Gotta be a world record rifle...

I posted some pictures below. I have several others also. I was just shooting for group size and not worrying that they weren't right on target. May be beginners luck as my fellow shooters would say let's see you repeat it. It would usually take several tries to do it again.

 

[walt willis]

I am using 45.3 gr IMR 4064 for the 175 gr Tipped SMKs (2930 fps) and 47.0 gr for the 155 gr Tipped SMKs (3145 fps). I wanted to get the 175s going as fast as I could so they would remain stable out to 1000 yards. I am loading the bullets .020" off the lands.

The .020" is spot on. I was told that the small primer works best in the Lapua case and your crimp must be right as well. Have you tried Varget? I used 44gr Varget with the match Sierra 168gr BTHP to get a one hole group at 100 yards. It had 1/16 out of the one hole shot at one and 8 O'clock with My CZ-550. If the wind was right it could look good out to 1,000 yards.

 

[walt willis]

I posted some pictures below. I have several others also. I was just shooting for group size and not worrying that they weren't right on target. May be beginners luck as my fellow shooters would say let's see you repeat it. It would usually take several tries to do it again.

I get the same remarks as well until I do it again! All we'll need is two more like us and we'll have a good shooting team?

 

[Jimbobbilly]

I get the same remarks as well until I do it again! All we'll need is two more like us and we'll have a good shooting team?

Walt where do you live? I'm just south of Atlanta in Griffin. You must be OLD if you knew Carlos Hathcock!!! I took a day of long distance shooting training from Ret. Navy Chief Mike O'Neal in Lexington Ga. (Gunsite Hills Shooting Range). He trained under Hathcock for a tournament he represented the Navy in.

 

[Mozella]

..... snip............ also had a 10 shot group smaller than a tennis ball........... snip............ Any advice would be appreciated.

My advice would be stick with what you're doing. The world record 10 shot group at 1000 yards was recently listed as something like 3.505". Since you're shooting better than 2.70" (the diameter of a tennis ball), both you and your equipment is essentially as good as it gets.

I can only say that you should purchase a gigantic trophy case. You're going to need it.