Ok i dont understand this.. Help for .38spl load....

[Rsadams]

Hi guys and gals,
Ok here's what I'm using win.231 @1.440 and 125g.fp berry preffered plated .38 bullet. Crono is a comp.electronic and seems to be working fine. I have reloaded thousands of 9mm using the above components, no problem... Also the gun is a ruger lcr.38+p....

But in the problem iam having, is crazy speed deviation over the crono. Such as say 750fps first shot then 497fps third shot then say 650 fps next. Its all over the place. Some rounds even feel softer. With this combo listed above it was 4.6gr of win231 at 1.440 exactly and I mean exactly every charge triple weighed on a rcbs 10/10 and the coal exactly 1.44 With a quarter turn on a Lee FCD, no problem with bullet creep...

Scale has been checked with rcbs check weights and is on the money. I was using s/b primers and it was leaving unburned powder. I changed to CCI and that went away. Even cut way back on sooty cases I was getting, so seems like I was getting better ignition with the cci primers for sure.
Now lead data for win. 231 is 3.8/4.8 and 4.2 we flying at like 450fps so I stepped it up to 4.6 and thought this should be it..wrong first shot was great then all over the place. Here's shots 5 through 1.. Shot 5. 653fps shot 4. 555fps shot 3. 693fps shot 2. 609fps
Shot 1. 779fps.. avarage 657fps with a deviation of 85 this seems crazy to me with all loaded rounds EXACTLY the same. And this is my third try with wild results. I have no problem with 9mm everything is great but the .38spl is driving me nuts. I don't get these wild fps in the 9mm and I use the powder dropper weighing every 5th to 10th round.

Could it be I need to use a more dense powder to fill the case more? Even 4.6gr of win.231 and it's not even half full. Iam trying to get some light target loads for my wife's CHL gun to practice with and the 4.6 is not light in a ruger lcr. It kicks and throws a fireball out the muzzle. But at least With the cci primers its hot enough to seal the brass to the cylinder and not leave sooty brass.. With the s/b primers it wasn't.

As said I've loaded thousands of. 9mm with the s/b primers and 4.2gr of win. 231 and no problems. But iam pulling my hair out with this .38 spl and I don't have any to spare these days.. lol... Any ideas much appreciated ad if any more info is needed I will be checking regularly.. Thanks in advance...

 

[jlow]

The first thing to suspect when you get crazy MV numbers is the chronograph. I would shoot a few factory .38spl rounds through it to confirm it is working before you do anything else. Just because it worked before does not mean it is working now.

 

[Rsadams]

The first thing to suspect when you get crazy MV numbers is the chronograph. I would shoot a few factory .38spl rounds through it to confirm it is working before you do anything else. Just because it worked before does not mean it is working now.

Thanks for your reply,, I have done that shooting Blazer,fed. And remington factory ammo over it with good results. All being were they should be around 775 to 800 fps with no super slow ones.. What's crazy is you can feel some of mine that are not as hot. And they are all exactly the same in charge weight and coal..now with the CCI primers that and the unburnt powder went away...

But even worse was I shot 2 into a 4×4 plank and they went in maybe flush or a quarter inch...you would think 4.6gr of win.231 would do better than that because it was kicking the crap out of my hand. I am truly lost on this thing. It was even expanding the brass out were they wouldn't just fall out of the cylinder like weak loads. But they also were not hard to remove either. Of course they were FP bullets but it seems like they should penetrate better than that... The gun itself shoots great all primer strikes were about the same with no not even close to flattened primers.. And it shoots all factory ammo great..

It has consistently done this with my win. 231 reloads but not with factory ammo.. I don't mind shooting 5 rounds over it again though , with both blazer and remington 130gr factory it only measured 7 fps avg. difference between both of them one at 790fps the other at 797fps on two different days.. Without the wild readings...

 

[joshb]

How's your case length and crimp? Same lot/firings?

 

[fredhorace77]

Sounds to me it has something to do with the powder charge being so low that it is becoming position sensitive.

I think you need a higher pressure load and or a different powder. Alot of the gas is lost in between the cylinder and barrel on a revolver.

 

[jds holler]

Ya might try a tighter crimp I'm thinkin. (unless it's already there) A lot of guys worry about over crimping the plated bullets, but I've had no issues.

I've used a lot of light loads of 231, and position sensitivity has never been a problem. jd

 

[Rsadams]

How's your case length and crimp? Same lot/firings?

Case lengths are within and all fired the same amount this was 3, I measure ever time and use a Wilson case gauge before and after loading measuring after loading of course also.. Once using 4.2gr of win.231 and s/b primers..way slow and once at 4.6 with s/b primers and this last time 4.6 of win. 231 and CCI primers the cci definitely gave better ignition... The crimp was a quarter turn all three times using a Lee fcd with no bullet creep.. Also what I've been taught is the bullet retention is like 98% in the case mouth and 2% on the crimp. That the crimp is basically to help prevent bullet creep , I could very well be wrong....I can see if using a VERY heavy crimp it could be more and help build pressure but then you may cut the coating on the berrys leading to poor accuracy,which is a problem I am not having it shoots ok but fps are all over the place..

Just fyi the crono is used in the morning sun everytime say 11:00 am with it's sun shades on it and it has never failed to read a shot or given an error. Just throwing that out there...

 

[Rem06]

Hi guys and gals,
Ok here's what I'm using win.231 @1.440 and 125g.fp berry preffered plated .38 bullet. Crono is a comp.electronic and seems to be working fine. I have reloaded thousands of 9mm using the above components, no problem... Also the gun is a ruger lcr.38+p....

But in the problem iam having, is crazy speed deviation over the crono. Such as say 750fps first shot then 497fps third shot then say 650 fps next. Its all over the place. Some rounds even feel softer. With this combo listed above it was 4.6gr of win231 at 1.440 exactly and I mean exactly every charge triple weighed on a rcbs 10/10 and the coal exactly 1.44 With a quarter turn on a Lee FCD, no problem with bullet creep...

Scale has been checked with rcbs check weights and is on the money. I was using s/b primers and it was leaving unburned powder. I changed to CCI and that went away. Even cut way back on sooty cases I was getting, so seems like I was getting better ignition with the cci primers for sure.
Now lead data for win. 231 is 3.8/4.8 and 4.2 we flying at like 450fps so I stepped it up to 4.6 and thought this should be it..wrong first shot was great then all over the place. Here's shots 5 through 1.. Shot 5. 653fps shot 4. 555fps shot 3. 693fps shot 2. 609fps
Shot 1. 779fps.. avarage 657fps with a deviation of 85 this seems crazy to me with all loaded rounds EXACTLY the same. And this is my third try with wild results. I have no problem with 9mm everything is great but the .38spl is driving me nuts. I don't get these wild fps in the 9mm and I use the powder dropper weighing every 5th to 10th round.

Could it be I need to use a more dense powder to fill the case more? Even 4.6gr of win.231 and it's not even half full. Iam trying to get some light target loads for my wife's CHL gun to practice with and the 4.6 is not light in a ruger lcr. It kicks and throws a fireball out the muzzle. But at least With the cci primers its hot enough to seal the brass to the cylinder and not leave sooty brass.. With the s/b primers it wasn't.

As said I've loaded thousands of. 9mm with the s/b primers and 4.2gr of win. 231 and no problems. But iam pulling my hair out with this .38 spl and I don't have any to spare these days.. lol... Any ideas much appreciated ad if any more info is needed I will be checking regularly.. Thanks in advance...

have you used those same lot of bullets before? "personally" I am not a fan of "Berrys" or swaged bullets.
How hard are they to seat in place? as in are they being deformed by too much seating pressure?

I loaded 357 and 38 and actually heard lots of funny sounds from the loads I loaded from berrys and wnet to hard cast lead or harder hornady plated.
I again "personally" don't like swaged bullets as they are too soft for my liking.

 

[Rsadams]

Ya might try a tighter crimp I'm thinkin. (unless it's already there) A lot of guys worry about over crimping the plated bullets, but I've had no issues.

I've used a lot of light loads of 231, and position sensitivity has never been a problem. jd

In 9mm I have never had a problem either but of course that's 2 different things... I read all over the place were guys are using less powder like 3.8 or 4.0 and not having problems. I would be scared to drop below 4.2 honestly. Scared I might stick a bullet. It acts like it's not hot enough, sooty brass and gun but it's kicking at 4.6 pretty darn good.. Of course no pressure signs...

I have pulled bullets in the past and it has a slight crimp ring around the bullet itself and iam not noticing any bullet creep with a quarter turn, half a turn and there is a definite crimp ring around the bullet so I went with a quarter turn to be sure and not damage the coating..

 

[Rsadams]

have you used those same lot of bullets before? "personally" I am not a fan of "Berrys" or swaged bullets.
How hard are they to seat in place? as in are they being deformed by too much seating pressure?

I loaded 357 and 38 and actually heard lots of funny sounds from the loads I loaded from berrys and wnet to hard cast lead or harder hornady plated.
I again "personally" don't like swaged bullets as they are too soft for my liking.

No, not getting any problems seating they all seem about the same going in. They just slide in and I have even pulled some, no scraping on sides either. I even deburr the case mouths if I see a problem. Needless to say I take my time I spend a lot of time on case prep...I haven't had this problem before.. I even sent the Lee fcd back and had it checked. Came back with a hand written note saying it should be fine and two crimped .38 brass I sent along with it.. I am truly frustrated..

 

[Rsadams]

Position sensitivity because of low powder in the brass is what I was thinking here also. Any powder that might fill the case more might help,, any suggestions on a brand...

Also on the crono, I went and looked at my data, 2 factory 5 shots groups one blazer one remington both 130gr five shot avg. Only 7 fps from each other one at 790 the other at 797 on two different days. It also is picking up the increase in powder charge the avg fps are climbing with increased charge everytime and gained with going to the hotter cci primer.. So it seems like it's working...

 

[fredhorace77]

IMO, there are many great culprits given here. The bullets could indeed be the problem. I think you have several likely things you can change and see what happens. Let us know what you come up with.

 

[watercam]

Your crimp is too light. A quarter turn of a Lee crimp die is not nearly enough. Try at least 2/3 to 3/4 turn. I had similar issues until I went for it on crimping. IF you look at factory loads using cast bullets you will see a bit of flat case against the bullet - tighter crimp helps build consistent pressure. I use both hard cast and plated bullets with this much crimp with good success.

 

[Rsadams]

Your crimp is too light. A quarter turn of a Lee crimp die is not nearly enough. Try at least 2/3 to 3/4 turn. I had similar issues until I went for it on crimping. IF you look at factory loads using cast bullets you will see a bit of flat case against the bullet - tighter crimp helps build consistent pressure. I use both hard cast and plated bullets with this much crimp with good success.

Ok I will bump that bad boy up a bit.. Thanks everyone for your reply...

 

[Rsadams]

IMO, there are many great culprits given here. The bullets could indeed be the problem. I think you have several likely things you can change and see what happens. Let us know what you come up with.

Ok thanks, iam gonna try the tighter crimp first and see what happens..

 

[dskogman]

Try Bullseye or Unique. I've run as small as 2.8 gr of Bullseye in 38 spl. with LSWC or HBWC's

 

[Rsadams]

Try Bullseye or Unique. I've run as small as 2.8 gr of Bullseye in 38 spl. with LSWC or HBWC's

I have some Unique some were....I will try that also

 

[GotRDid]

Please confirm actual diameter of your lot of bullets. While not Berry's, I have purchased plated bullets that measured .356 dia., and on-target results were abysmal in my revolvers.
Switched to Xtreme plated bullets (and Berry's) measuring an honest .357/.358 with great success.
GotRDid.

 

[Shaggy357]

Have read all the posts and agree, need a good crimp and nearly full case of powder for 38s. However, there are things that can be done during reloading to help minimize variability and increase reliability.

Position sensitivity can be minimized by using an over-powder wad made from those foam trays you get in the meat department at the grocery store. A fired case makes a great cutter and if you enlarge the primer hole and put a flathead nail inside it is easy to push out 4-5 wads at a time. You can cut 100 wads in a couple of minutes. Place over the powder before seating the bullet. Will hold the powder close to the primer and disintegrate on firing.

Believe it or not, variability in case length can mess with crimp and powder burn rate. Shorter cases don't crimp well and powder burn suffers. Longer cases either over crimped deforming the bullet or causing the case to bulge near the rim. Measure your brass and see how much variability you have in brass length. Even my mixed brass loads are closer in velocity and variation than yours. The Lee crimp die works best if the cases are the same length.

You also might check the size of the Berry's bullets vs your cylinder and barrel diameter. My 38s are all loaded with .358 or .359 cast bullets. In the jacketed or plated bullets I try to get .358 also, just so I can use them in all of my guns. Some of the .357 bullets did not shoot as well.

Reinforcement of some of the previous comments and sharing ways to help resolve the issues should help you out. Those Lee trim dies become invaluable when it comes to sizing brass. The pin that goes through the primer pocket can be shortened a little to ensure brass length uniformity. Brass trim length of 1.140-1.150 would be ideal. You will likely find fired cases at 1.155"+.

Hope this helps.

Steve

 

[Rsadams]

Have read all the posts and agree, need a good crimp and nearly full case of powder for 38s. However, there are things that can be done during reloading to help minimize variability and increase reliability.

Position sensitivity can be minimized by using an over-powder wad made from those foam trays you get in the meat department at the grocery store. A fired case makes a great cutter and if you enlarge the primer hole and put a flathead nail inside it is easy to push out 4-5 wads at a time. You can cut 100 wads in a couple of minutes. Place over the powder before seating the bullet. Will hold the powder close to the primer and disintegrate on firing.

Believe it or not, variability in case length can mess with crimp and powder burn rate. Shorter cases don't crimp well and powder burn suffers. Longer cases either over crimped deforming the bullet or causing the case to bulge near the rim. Measure your brass and see how much variability you have in brass length. Even my mixed brass loads are closer in velocity and variation than yours. The Lee crimp die works best if the cases are the same length.

You also might check the size of the Berry's bullets vs your cylinder and barrel diameter. My 38s are all loaded with .358 or .359 cast bullets. In the jacketed or plated bullets I try to get .358 also, just so I can use them in all of my guns. Some of the .357 bullets did not shoot as well.

Reinforcement of some of the previous comments and sharing ways to help resolve the issues should help you out. Those Lee trim dies become invaluable when it comes to sizing brass. The pin that goes through the primer pocket can be shortened a little to ensure brass length uniformity. Brass trim length of 1.140-1.150 would be ideal. You will likely find fired cases at 1.155"+.

Hope this helps.

Steve

Just measured 3 random out the box came out 0.358 box says 0.357 but there not...most cases ar around 1.46 to 1.48 if I remember correctly...these are berry 125gr fp .38 preferred plated bullets and the brass Is federal....