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Humbled at the range today

I was testing various charge weights of IMR 4166 with SMK Moly coated 69gr bullets in my Howa 1500 .223 "fun gun" at 100 yards. The results were OK, producing 5 shot groups of sub .4 MOA, but nothing spectacular and nothing to indicate that it's better than my go-to IMR 8208 XBR in this particular gun.

My wife shoots not more than once every two or three months. She has fun with her fancy Grade II Browning Lever Action 22LR, but that's about the limit of her interest. Today we were checking out her new Kel Tec PMR 30, the 22 Magnum pistol which holds 30 rounds. I bought it so her 72 year old arthritic hands can rack the slide, something she can no longer do with a 9mm semi-auto.

When I was done testing I invited her to sling 5 rounds downrange from the Howa .223 using some left over fouling rounds similar to my test batch, but loaded with IMR 8208 XBR. It my great dismay, she produced this 5 shot group measuring .164 MOA. Not bad for an old gal who doesn't take much interest in shooting. I'm not sure what to say other than, "Nice shooting honey".

Chings Group
 
Oh, I bet there's a little pride mixed in with the dismay. Good for you both. I take my wife fishing, now and again. She always catches the biggest fish.
 
Nice. Maybe you should nonchalantly get her to shoot 3 strings of 20 at 600 yards. You know, for giggles. :)
I shoot 600 yd F/TR and 600 yd BR each month. She's expressed some interest "just to see if I can hit the target at 600 yards". So perhaps I'll see if can squeeze her in on a special introductory target for 5 or 10 rounds at the end of the upcoming match. Our bunch is serious about the competition while being very nice about encouraging first shooters and other special circumstances.
 
She give shooting lessons?I have a brother same deal shoots a centerfire about every half a dozen years man can he put them in there.He tells me some people got it some people don't.I beleive him.
 
She give shooting lessons?.... snip..........

I was wondering the same thing. I asked her to tell me EXACTLY how she did it. I'm a bag squeezer, but she said she held her hand on the forearm and slid the rifle back and forth on the rest to fine tune her elevation aim point. I always make sure to push the rifle forward against the bench stop. She just pushed the rifle around and aimed very carefully and then she says she "tried to squeeze the trigger real gently". Go figure.
 
The results were OK, producing 5 shot groups of sub .4 MOA, but nothing spectacular . . .

First, please express my most sincere congratulations (and awe) to your bride.

Second, if I could consistently put 5 rounds into "sub 0.4 MOA," it'd be far from "nothing spectacular."

Just sayin'.
 
First, please express my most sincere congratulations (and awe) to your bride.

Second, if I could consistently put 5 rounds into "sub 0.4 MOA," it'd be far from "nothing spectacular."

Just sayin'.

Just to be clear, several of the better 5 shot groups were sub .400 MOA but the average was .512 MOA. Of course, during load testing, you expect some charge weights to be worse and some better. Not all my groups during that test were sub .400 MOA, but several of them were.

Anyhow, I think if you start with a decent gun (not a competition target gun) and if you use careful reloading skills you can regularly produce sub .500 MOA groups. If I use my best ammo on a windless day, I'll give you five bucks if the next 5 round group at 100 yards isn't below .500 MOA. No guarantees of course, which is why I don't offer $5000 bucks, but you get the point.

Groups under .400 are quite a bit tougher if you mean to say nearly all of them will be that good or better. Bench Rest guys do this all the time, but serious competition BR shooters have little in common with real human beans (sic). ;)

We're talking about rather ordinary equipment here. If I go to the range and shoot 100 or 150 rounds, I would shocked if I didn't have some 5 shot groups better than .400 and surprised if at least one of them wasn't better than .250 MOA. My friends who are serious shooters would do the same with their "fun" stuff and I know for sure they can do that with their competition stuff.

The gun I do this with isn't any thing fancy, a Howa 1500 with a cheap ($250) Mueller scope, which is actually pretty darn good. My reloading techniques are good, but not extreme. I take care in weighing the powder, but for my "fun" ammo I don't weight sort cases or bullets and I use ordinary Lake City brass and Sierra Match King bullets; i.e. nothing particularly fancy. All the rest of the equipment, rest, bag, and so-on are good, but not expensive. In other words, none of the gear or the procedures are nearly as good as what a Bench Rest competitor would use and none of it is particularly expensive.

I get a little more serious about equipment, ammo components, and reloading procedures for F/TR competition. Now I just have to figure out what my wife is doing. Her "grip-it-and-rip-it" style is a mystery to me.
 
. . . Anyhow, I think if you start with a decent gun (not a competition target gun) and if you use careful reloading skills you can regularly produce sub .500 MOA groups. . . .

I believe you are understating your skill. At least as far as I'm concerned. I have shot some really nice groups, so my equipment and my loading procedures would seem to be just fine. My problem is that I can't do so consistently.

That's shooter weakness, not a problem with reloading technique or equipment.

But I'll keep a'tryin'.;)


 
First of all congratulations to your wife, and also to you, for loads that were better than you realized they were. You mentioned something about pushing the rifle against the bench stop. By that, did you mean the rest's forend stop? If you did, you might consider that that contact may be one of several issues that you might want to experiment with. Just because your rest has a feature, does not mean that a particular technique will produce the best results with a given rifle. I see a lot of fellows that have a rather strong opinion as to how a rifle is supposed to be shot from a bench. As a result the do not do much experimenting. I think that that is a mistake. Also, you mentioned the price of your equipment. While there is some general correlation between price and performance, it seems to me that you have a very good rifle, better than one would expect for what it cost you. Perhaps you might want to invest in a upgrade or two. It seems to be worth the investment. One thing in particular comes to mind, the trigger. Doing a little research, it seems that you have several options. The lightest pull that I saw was from Rifle Basix. In any case, it seems that you have lucked out with these particular purchases, rifle and scope, and I am sure that you will continue to enjoy both. Good for both of you.
 
First of all congratulations to your wife, and also to you, for loads that were better than you realized they were. You mentioned something about pushing the rifle against the bench stop. By that, did you mean the rest's forend stop? If you did, you might consider that that contact may be one of several issues that you might want to experiment with. Just because your rest has a feature, does not mean that a particular technique will produce the best results with a given rifle. I see a lot of fellows that have a rather strong opinion as to how a rifle is supposed to be shot from a bench. As a result the do not do much experimenting. I think that that is a mistake. Also, you mentioned the price of your equipment. While there is some general correlation between price and performance, it seems to me that you have a very good rifle, better than one would expect for what it cost you. Perhaps you might want to invest in a upgrade or two. It seems to be worth the investment. One thing in particular comes to mind, the trigger. Doing a little research, it seems that you have several options. The lightest pull that I saw was from Rifle Basix. In any case, it seems that you have lucked out with these particular purchases, rifle and scope, and I am sure that you will continue to enjoy both. Good for both of you.

No....... very little luck involved actually. Anyone can put together a fun gun for not too much money and expect to shoot 1/2 MOA 5 shot groups.

I did quite a bit of research before I purchased any of these components. The scope is a Mueller, a powerful buy inexpensive scope made in China. It's not what I use in competition, but it's actually a great scope for a fun gun. By the way, if I somehow damaged one of the scopes on my competition rifles, I wouldn't hesitate a minute to bolt on this particular Mueller scope; but I'd be ready for my fellow competitors to tease me a bit.

The barreled action, a Stainless Steel Howa 1500 from Japan, is a very nicely made piece with a heavy barrel and a very well made action. The workmanship puts Savage to shame, yet the price is low. Nothing wrong with Savage by the way, I own several and they shoot great, and a couple shoot even better than my Howa.

The stock is something I made from an inletted blank of Grade AA Select walnut. It took quite a bit of work, but it turned out very well; mostly because of my many years of experience in wood working.

As for modifications, remember this is a fun Sunday range gun used for just goofing around and training for F-Class and Bench Rest competition. Of course, I have dedicated competition guns for those disciplines, but I don't wear them out shooting expensive-to-make ammo when I'm just fooling around. That's what the Howa is for. Right now there are 5024 rounds down the barrel.

The standard trigger was nice, but knew I could improve it. Spending a quarter of what the action cost to replace the already good trigger makes little sense, at least to me. So I modified the standard trigger to reduce the creep, lighten the pull, and improve the crispness at the cost of some time, a couple of replacement springs, a few bits of fine sandpaper, and a dab of polishing compound. Now, it's very good; at least as good as the triggers on my competition rifles.

The point is, that anyone with a little bit of common sense can purchase a similar inexpensive factory rifle, or inexpensive components, and put together a budget gun which will shoot 5 shot, sub 1/5 MOA at 100 yards most of the time. This assumes, of course, that they also reload with some care, but the components just have to be good, not competition grade; i.e. Sierra, not Berger. It has little to do with luck. People I shoot next to on the local range have plenty of rifles, some purchased and some built from component parts, which perform quite well. Some of them are quite talented, but many of them also have terrible luck.

Taking a factory rifle which shoots 1 MOA with factory ammo and changing it to something which shoots 1/2 MOA with hand-loads isn't rocket surgery. Lots of guys at the local range do that without spending a lot of money. Sub 1/4 MOA, on the other hand, is something entirely different; but we all know that already.
 
No....... very little luck involved actually. Anyone can put together a fun gun for not too much money and expect to shoot 1/2 MOA 5 shot groups.

I did quite a bit of research before I purchased any of these components. The scope is a Mueller, a powerful buy inexpensive scope made in China. It's not what I use in competition, but it's actually a great scope for a fun gun. By the way, if I somehow damaged one of the scopes on my competition rifles, I wouldn't hesitate a minute to bolt on this particular Mueller scope; but I'd be ready for my fellow competitors to tease me a bit.

The barreled action, a Stainless Steel Howa 1500 from Japan, is a very nicely made piece with a heavy barrel and a very well made action. The workmanship puts Savage to shame, yet the price is low. Nothing wrong with Savage by the way, I own several and they shoot great, and a couple shoot even better than my Howa.

The stock is something I made from an inletted blank of Grade AA Select walnut. It took quite a bit of work, but it turned out very well; mostly because of my many years of experience in wood working.

As for modifications, remember this is a fun Sunday range gun used for just goofing around and training for F-Class and Bench Rest competition. Of course, I have dedicated competition guns for those disciplines, but I don't wear them out shooting expensive-to-make ammo when I'm just fooling around. That's what the Howa is for. Right now there are 5024 rounds down the barrel.

The standard trigger was nice, but knew I could improve it. Spending a quarter of what the action cost to replace the already good trigger makes little sense, at least to me. So I modified the standard trigger to reduce the creep, lighten the pull, and improve the crispness at the cost of some time, a couple of replacement springs, a few bits of fine sandpaper, and a dab of polishing compound. Now, it's very good; at least as good as the triggers on my competition rifles.

The point is, that anyone with a little bit of common sense can purchase a similar inexpensive factory rifle, or inexpensive components, and put together a budget gun which will shoot 5 shot, sub 1/5 MOA at 100 yards most of the time. This assumes, of course, that they also reload with some care, but the components just have to be good, not competition grade; i.e. Sierra, not Berger. It has little to do with luck. People I shoot next to on the local range have plenty of rifles, some purchased and some built from component parts, which perform quite well. Some of them are quite talented, but many of them also have terrible luck.

Taking a factory rifle which shoots 1 MOA with factory ammo and changing it to something which shoots 1/2 MOA with hand-loads isn't rocket surgery. Lots of guys at the local range do that without spending a lot of money. Sub 1/4 MOA, on the other hand, is something entirely different; but we all know that already.


Is the barrel factory, or aftermarket? Thanks for sharing the info on the Howa, it sure sounds like a "fun gun", it's always fun to shoot good groups. Congrats to your wife as well. Maybe you should try the grip it and rip it method, it works for her.
 
Is the barrel factory, or aftermarket? Thanks for sharing the info on the Howa, it sure sounds like a "fun gun", it's always fun to shoot good groups. Congrats to your wife as well. Maybe you should try the grip it and rip it method, it works for her.
Factory with over 5000 rounds down the pipe.
 

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