One shot in necks and annealing

[eric n]

Has any one annealed with one shot left in the necks? Did it burn out, or make a grabby mess that made seating much more difficult?
If the latter, how did you get it out?

2 groups out of the same batch, each prepped the same. One group annealed, one not. Same # of firings.
Non annealed seated normal and easy.
Annealed with one shot left in seated like garbage. (very hard)
Sure would have thought the one shot would burn out, unless I'm missing something obvious, it didn't and made a mess.
Thanks

 

[joshb]

My process specifically avoids annealing with lube on the cases. Fired round gets annealed then sized, tumbled etc.

 

[firewrench044]

I anneal after all case work is done, with RCBS lub on the cases ( it cleans off with water )
but I wash the cases after annealing to remove the lub and any other stuff
( I wash with the blue Dawn dish soap and Lemi-Shine )

 

[Zero333]

Next time....

1. Tumble.
2. Anneal.
3. Re-size.

Use those cases that were hard to sit bullets in as sighters or just shoot them separately from the normal ones and see what happens. As long as the bullets pull is the same from case to case, they should group alright.

 

[Mozella]

....... snip..........
Sure would have thought the one shot would burn out, unless I'm missing something obvious, it didn't and made a mess.
Thanks

You expected it to "burn out" and not leave anything? Not many lubricants I know of will do that. You are no doubt fighting some sort of ash and/or sludge. If you're trying to save a step, try this:

I shoot single shots and collect my brass in a clean cloth. At the end of a string, I put the brass in a plastic bag so it arrives back in my reloading room nice and clean. I lube the brass and decap, shoulder bump, and bushing neck size. The bushing is slightly smaller than the desired final size. I select it based on the neck thickness of that particular batch of brass.

Then I trim if necessary and chamfer. Next I degrease the cases with Simple Green and boiling water, rinse, and then wet SS tumble. After drying I anneal them. Then I prime and run an expanding mandrel down the neck; .2225" for my .223 ammo. Next I weigh the powder and charge each case. Finally I seat the bullets.

This means my cases are annealed just before uniforming the neck with an expanding mandrel and they get shoulder bumped after one firing cycle, but before the annealing step. That's a little different from the way many others do it, but it requires only one cleaning step (assuming your brass comes home from the range without any grit) and it lets me final-size the necks after annealing and just before charging/seating. It also means the necks are sized to the final diameter (and roundness) after any potential rough handling steps like tumbling, dumping them into buckets for rinsing, shaking out pins and water, etc.
...

 

[dantiff2]

You expected it to "burn out" and not leave anything? Not many lubricants I know of will do that. You are no doubt fighting some sort of ash and/or sludge. If you're trying to save a step, try this:

I shoot single shots and collect my brass in a clean cloth. At the end of a string, I put the brass in a plastic bag so it arrives back in my reloading room nice and clean. I lube the brass and decap, shoulder bump, and bushing neck size. The bushing is slightly smaller than the desired final size. I select it based on the neck thickness of that particular batch of brass.

Then I trim if necessary and chamfer. Next I degrease the cases with Simple Green and boiling water, rinse, and then wet SS tumble. After drying I anneal them. Then I prime and run an expanding mandrel down the neck; .2225" for my .223 ammo. Next I weigh the powder and charge each case. Finally I seat the bullets.

This means my cases are annealed just before uniforming the neck with an expanding mandrel and they get shoulder bumped after one firing cycle, but before the annealing step. That's a little different from the way many others do it, but it requires only one cleaning step (assuming your brass comes home from the range without any grit) and it lets me final-size the necks after annealing and just before charging/seating. It also means the necks are sized to the final diameter (and roundness) after any potential rough handling steps like tumbling, dumping them into buckets for rinsing, shaking out pins and water, etc.
...

My operation is by no means better in any way. I just wanted to say that you "might" be missing out on the benefits of annealing by bumping the shoulder before the annealing process. I could never get a good consistent shoulder bump until I started annealing. Now I can hold it within half a thousandths by annealing first then bumping with a short (2-4 second) dwell time in the die.

If your brass is cruddy or dirty in any way. Throw them in some hot water with a pinch of lemi shine in the water. Shake or agitate slightly then rinse with warm or cold water. I then throw them in my homemade annealer(concentrating on the neck shoulder junction) and they are dried by the time they cool off on the towel I lay them out on. I can go right into the resize operation with horandy one shot with zero mess. I don't even bother wiping anything off anymore. You can trim/ debur, load and shoot with no issues. Perfect neck tension every time. No need to clean inside necks or mess with dry neck lube. This makes things a lot more efficient.

Dan

 

[racesnake]

Eric...are you shooting HBn coated bullets? I ran into a hard seating problem when using HBn and freshly annealed cases. Quit using coating and problem went away.

 

[Judd]

I don't tumble brass unless I've turned the necks and got stuff in the case. I clean the outside of the necks but leave the carbon on the inside...more benefits than downsides to that carbon.

Always anneal prior to sizing...like dantiff said this will provide you a much more consistent resize.

 

[Ned Ludd]

If you clean, anneal, then re-size, every single time the brass is fired, the annealing step will still be consistent in relation to all the other reloading steps and will give the same benefit. It is highly unlikely that a single re-sizing step that constricts the neck and body and pushes back the shoulder by a few thousandths is going to work harden the brass by even a minute fraction of what firing a bullet at 55-60 psi will. For ease of operation, there is no need to re-size prior to annealing for most of us. However, if you're set on doing it that way, you can easily rinse the cases after re-sizing two to three times in Dawn/Lemishine/hot water, followed by plain hot water to remove the detergent, and drying, prior to annealing. This is a very easy way to remove One Shot lube and could be done to ensure the lube wasn't being combusted inside the case necks during the annealing step, although it would take a bit of extra time.

 

[dantiff2]

If you clean, anneal, then re-size, every single time the brass is fired, the annealing step will still be consistent in relation to all the other reloading steps and will give the same benefit. It is highly unlikely that a single re-sizing step that constricts the neck and body and pushes back the shoulder by a few thousandths is going to work harden the brass by even a minute fraction of what firing a bullet at 55-60 psi will. For ease of operation, there is no need to re-size prior to annealing for most of us. However, if you're set on doing it that way, you can easily rinse the cases after re-sizing two to three times in Dawn/Lemishine/hot water, followed by plain hot water to remove the detergent, and drying, prior to annealing. This is a very easy way to remove One Shot lube and could be done to ensure the lube wasn't being combusted inside the case necks during the annealing step, although it would take a bit of extra time.

I thought the same as you until I started verifying shoulder bump on every case as a personal test. Something as simple as the amount of neck lube in a case will alter your shoulder bump results because of the drag on the neck via the expander ball. This can slightly pull the shoulder back out as much as a thou or one and a half thou. He is reworking his necks after the shoulder bump so there is a slight chance that the bump is inconsistent. This is however not the intention of this post so I will not drag this out any further. Do your own testing. When trying to achieve a .001" shoulder bump. You must have your ducks in a row.


Dan

 

[Ned Ludd]

I have a much simpler method. I don't use an expander ball.

 

[dantiff2]

Eric, You might be better off trying the use of a dry neck lube if you insist on annealing after the resize. You could use the imperial wax on the body followed by a neck dip in the Imperial neck lube media. Might fair out better than burnt One shot.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/892537/imperial-dry-neck-lube-application-media-1-oz

Dan

 

[joshb]

Well.......I neck dip first, put the shell in the shell holder and then apply the wax with my "waxing fingers". Those little balls kept sticking to the case.

 

[bobinpa]

Next time....

1. Tumble.
2. Anneal.
3. Re-size.

Use those cases that were hard to sit bullets in as sighters or just shoot them separately from the normal ones and see what happens. As long as the bullets pull is the same from case to case, they should group alright.

My process is the same as Zero333. Clean, anneal, then start the resizing & reloading process. Then you are always working with annealed cases.

 

[Mozella]

My process is the same as Zero333. Clean, anneal, then start the resizing & reloading process. Then you are always working with annealed cases.

The annealing lasts only as long as the brass isn't worked. You might be working with an annealed case for the resizing, but you will be seating with a slightly work hardened case caused by the resizing. Or, if you fire and then resize, as I do, then you will be resizing with a slightly work hardened case. If you then anneal, as I do, you will be seating with an annealed case.

Keep in mind that the work hardening caused by either sizing or firing is quite small. Of course it accumulates over time which is why those who don't anneal suffer cracked cases after a while.

I anneal every time and that works so well to eliminate cracking that I don't even try to count the number of times I use a particular batch of brass.

I've tested annealing before and after sizing and I can't detect any real difference. Of course if you don't anneal every time, then annealing before resizing makes sense. But if the case is work hardened by a single firing, I have found no inconsistency with my shoulder bumping routine done before cleaning and annealing. In other words, if you anneal every time, my experience is twelve-of-one, half-a-dozen of another. With one method you resize with a softer case and seat a slightly more springy case. With the other you size with a slightly more springy case and seat with a softer case. The end result of either situation can produce the consistency we're all searching for, perhaps with a slight adjustment of the sizing die and/or a slight adjustment of the neck die.

I think the key is to anneal every time. Exactly when you do it in the reloading/firing cycle (before or after resizing) is, as far my testing shows, is less important than annealing every time.

I don't use an expander ball, so I can't say how that might impact the final results.

 

[eric n]

Thanks for all your replies.
They are appreciated and do not fall on deaf ears.
Man, I hate to say this, especially after you all taking time to respond..... I don't anneal anymore .
I just wanted to try a batch again and compare. Fwiw... I used to anneal every firing. Tumble , clean, anneal, resize with imperial, tumble again.
I'm running what is probably to tight neck clearances now and gave it a solid go without annealing to see how long the necks lasted. I just can't see a difference on target (mid range) and haven't had a neck split before primer pockets go. (223 and 6br)

After cutting a neck open on the annealed case with one shot, it feels like there is a very faint adhesive on your fingers. I try to stay away from absolutes but I would say annealing one shot is absolutely no good for neck tension.
Hopefully this saves someone from grief in the future.