Annealing and scratches on 6.5SE
- Thread starter deadwooddick
- Start date
I had the same problem with Lapua brass and it drove me crazy. I did the polishing of the die and it would come back. I bought some more new Lapua brass and then I cleaned the necks with some brake and parts cleaner ( or some MEK ) before I just neck sized them and the problem went AWAY. There is something on the new Lapua brass. I was using 308 Palma brass. It would only scratch my die the first time I sized them.
Tarey
Tarey
jonbearman
I live in new york state,how unfortunate !
You think the manufacturing lube picks up dirt and using acetone or whatever will make it go away as I just experienced it yesterday with my first time sizing new blue box brass.Maybe when they tumble them at lapua to remove the sizing lube doesn't take it all off?
Minesweeper3433
45B/91F
To be honest the only brass I have ever had this happen with was lapue blue box new brass. It never happened when I fired without first running it through a sizer either now that I think back. Happened with 308, 6.5 swede, and 6.5 grendel brass.
I am also experiencing similar marks with a forester die and Lapua brass.
I clean the die and brass before every sizing session, but I still need to polish the die with 1000 grit emery cloth.
After contacting forester I was informed the die hardness has been increased in the last few years.
Good Luck
I clean the die and brass before every sizing session, but I still need to polish the die with 1000 grit emery cloth.
After contacting forester I was informed the die hardness has been increased in the last few years.
Good Luck
bpd459
Gold $$ Contributor
Greetings,
I experienced the same issues when annealing. I cleaned dies, neck bushings, etc, and still had the scratches.
I have a friend with a doctorate in metallurgy, and inquired about this very thing.
His explanation is that some brass compounds will produce an oxide when brought to temperature (IE annealing). It is the oxide that is causing the scratches as it is harder than the surface of the die / bushing.
Not every brass company uses the same / exact metallurgical mix in their respective products. Some brass does, some brass doesn't!
I run my brass, without the steel media, in my Thumblers to wash it off. Works great and no more scratches.
Take care,
John
I experienced the same issues when annealing. I cleaned dies, neck bushings, etc, and still had the scratches.
I have a friend with a doctorate in metallurgy, and inquired about this very thing.
His explanation is that some brass compounds will produce an oxide when brought to temperature (IE annealing). It is the oxide that is causing the scratches as it is harder than the surface of the die / bushing.
Not every brass company uses the same / exact metallurgical mix in their respective products. Some brass does, some brass doesn't!
I run my brass, without the steel media, in my Thumblers to wash it off. Works great and no more scratches.
Take care,
John
I've had the same problem in the past. My theory was the brass, bushing or neck lube was contaminated with fine brass particles from either case trimming or neck turning. I did all my reloading work at a 5' x 3' workstation so it wasn't hard to spread the little fine brass shavings around to other areas. I replaced my dry neck lube, thoroughly cleaned my neck bushings and moved my metal work to another area of the house. I also started running the cases through my tumbler before moving them back into my reloading room.
Once I started doing this, scratched necks went away.
Once I started doing this, scratched necks went away.
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
There are limits to what can be determined from a distance. In my case, when I had similar scratches, I polished the bushing, and they did not reappear. From reading others' posts, it is apparent that there may be multiple potential causes for these sorts of scratches. I have seen a case where brass that had transferred to a die's interior caused scratches on brass. In that case, the transfer seemed to have been caused by the interior finish of the die, which showed evidence of not having been sufficiently polished during its manufacture.
Webster said:
The "scratches" on my case necks (from the Jones bushing) can be felt with a fingernail. To me that indicates something besides 1) extraneous brass particle contamination or 2) an unremoved oxide.
As Boyd noted, I see "brassing" on the ID of the Jones bushing, not on the Wilson, tho. Cleaning the Jones w/ JB on a patch gives me a max of two cases before the scratches return. :'( Similar cleaning w/ the Wilson doesn't eliminate the "scratches."
FWIW, not tumbling cases prior to annealing, so not contaminated media "residue." I wonder if it's not residue from the Lead-a-way (that I clean necks with) isn't turning into something else when subjected to the flame. I am anal about removing the "stuff" following the lead-a-way use, to see if any carbon remains on the neck because THAT is hard.
MY OBSERVATIONS:
CTR Case in Photo
The scratches always start at the neck opening and run most of the neck sized length.
There is a bright area at the neck end where each scratch starts. Did a brass burr break off at these locations?
Rt Case in Photo
Looks like one tiny brass particle at the case mouth from when the case was extruded at the factory? It’s about the size of the bright spots at scratch beginnings in your center case image.
Enlarge the posted pix (seven clicks with “Control +) and you can see these areas.
My Comments
Where I used to work the engineers would measure chemical films down to the angstrom level. I would think the oxide film from annealing would be under several millionths of an inch thick and wouldn’t cause sharply defined narrow deep scratches all similar in width.
All the scratches were created by a somewhat symmetrical particle similar in size.
Difficult to tell if the scratched cases were chamfered on the o.d.? If you have brass particles from edge burrs being dragged down the neck this is where they would come from.
Most particles won’t embed in a hardened steel. If you have copper on the bushing that is very strange. I won’t expect galling at the sizing contact pressures? Maybe a lube problem. I have been using a 10W-30 motor oil with my K&M expander mandrel, problem solved. It gives a thicker oil film than traditional reloading lube.
I would do the below and hope like hell that it resolves the problem. Radio Shack sells a nice 3 lens hand magnifier for about $8. Examine about 25 cases for very tiny brass burrs at the neck o.d. opening. Anneal the cases and chamfer inside and out. Turn the case mouth against some 0000 steel wool. Inspect for chamfering debris. Size the cases and inspect for scratches. Is the Jones die a hardened steel? Scratch the Jones and Wilson die on the o.d. with a razor blade corner to see if there is a significant difference. Let us know how it works out. Good Luck!!!
CTR Case in Photo
The scratches always start at the neck opening and run most of the neck sized length.
There is a bright area at the neck end where each scratch starts. Did a brass burr break off at these locations?
Rt Case in Photo
Looks like one tiny brass particle at the case mouth from when the case was extruded at the factory? It’s about the size of the bright spots at scratch beginnings in your center case image.
Enlarge the posted pix (seven clicks with “Control +) and you can see these areas.
My Comments
Where I used to work the engineers would measure chemical films down to the angstrom level. I would think the oxide film from annealing would be under several millionths of an inch thick and wouldn’t cause sharply defined narrow deep scratches all similar in width.
All the scratches were created by a somewhat symmetrical particle similar in size.
Difficult to tell if the scratched cases were chamfered on the o.d.? If you have brass particles from edge burrs being dragged down the neck this is where they would come from.
Most particles won’t embed in a hardened steel. If you have copper on the bushing that is very strange. I won’t expect galling at the sizing contact pressures? Maybe a lube problem. I have been using a 10W-30 motor oil with my K&M expander mandrel, problem solved. It gives a thicker oil film than traditional reloading lube.
I would do the below and hope like hell that it resolves the problem. Radio Shack sells a nice 3 lens hand magnifier for about $8. Examine about 25 cases for very tiny brass burrs at the neck o.d. opening. Anneal the cases and chamfer inside and out. Turn the case mouth against some 0000 steel wool. Inspect for chamfering debris. Size the cases and inspect for scratches. Is the Jones die a hardened steel? Scratch the Jones and Wilson die on the o.d. with a razor blade corner to see if there is a significant difference. Let us know how it works out. Good Luck!!!
Suugestions here led to solution…
A bit fuzzy (microscope camera thingy is busted / won't work w/ new 'puter) but image shows a "rolled over" case mouth. How they do that, I don't know… but loading procedure for new cases now includes chamfering in/outside necks.
Thanks all.
Richard
A bit fuzzy (microscope camera thingy is busted / won't work w/ new 'puter) but image shows a "rolled over" case mouth. How they do that, I don't know… but loading procedure for new cases now includes chamfering in/outside necks.
Thanks all.
Richard
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
Webster,
Not having a magnified image of the problem, or a case in hand, I passed on what had actually permanently solved my particular issue that appeared to be similar to the OP's. Frankly it never occurred to me that someone would size cases, with a custom die, that had not had their mouths properly prepared. None of this has anything to do with being a "hammer mechanic", and frankly I find that your remark adds little to the discussion. Without the pieces in hand, there is some guessing that is always involved when trying to solve problems from a distance.
Not having a magnified image of the problem, or a case in hand, I passed on what had actually permanently solved my particular issue that appeared to be similar to the OP's. Frankly it never occurred to me that someone would size cases, with a custom die, that had not had their mouths properly prepared. None of this has anything to do with being a "hammer mechanic", and frankly I find that your remark adds little to the discussion. Without the pieces in hand, there is some guessing that is always involved when trying to solve problems from a distance.
Alex Wheeler
Site $$ Sponsor
Webster said:
We are honored to have you among us. :
The original problem had to do with brass burrs at the case mouth o.d. Nothing to do with carbon on the necks or particles on the die. Sanding my dies would be the very last thing I would attempt. It's unreasonable for particles to adhere to the die. Loose brass particles should come out with a cotton swab. Carbon on the necks shouldn't make scratches. I have been doing metallugical failure analysis for 45 years. Try the non-invasive methods first. I have sized over 20,000 cases without scratches. O.D. chamfer and keep things clean, you shouldn't have scratches.
I do a very light chamfer each time I reload a case. I put the chamfering tool on the case with just contact pressure and rock the tool back and forth about five times until I feel the slight roughness go away. Close to zero brass removed. No visable cut is made.
I do a very light chamfer each time I reload a case. I put the chamfering tool on the case with just contact pressure and rock the tool back and forth about five times until I feel the slight roughness go away. Close to zero brass removed. No visable cut is made.
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