Neck sizing question

[Pumba]

Boyd what is your view on the .001 clearance I have. Fguffey concider it a maybe still too much but if I read your posts correct there should be clearance to avoid "click" but same time you argue it should be the absolute minimal

 

[fguffey]

Fguffey concider it a maybe still too much

I considered the .001" was clearence, i suggesed it was not head space. Then there is clearence or the lack of clearence caused by case head upset. That would be the difference in the diameter of the chamber and outside diameter of the case in front of the extractor groove. I have no problem turning the case around and placing the case head into the chamber when determining clearence between the case and chamber. In the perfect world the case can fit into the chamber a short diatance. But, I have found cases that would not fit the chamber when shoved in backwards.

I also have shell holders that fit and I have shell holders that are loose.

F. Guffey

 

['Freak]

Thanks BoydAllen, ireload2, all’s duly noted.

 

[mikecr]

Dusty,
If you read my post above yours I do full legth resize I tried to research what im asking prior to me posting and everything I read ended up the same a Nk size/Fl size debate and never gets to the point of will the unsized portion of the neck cause any problems at some stage.

Good observation. Common FL bushing dies do not FL size the necks, and regardless of choice in body sizing, necks don't ever need to be FL sized.
To your question of neck sizing beyond seated bullet bearing, it does two things:
- increases bullet grip(tension)
- increases tension variance, and bringing donuts into play (even while seated clear of them).

If necks are turned and your load likes greater tension than provided by partial neck length sizing onto bearing alone, then FL sizing of necks may provide an overall benefit. That's not the same as any claim that eventually all necks would have to be FL sized, which is not true at all.
Most short range BR shooters(100-300) run with underbore cartridges that benefit from higher than normal pressures. It makes sense that these guys would reach for high neck tension, and/or soft seating for higher starting pressures. But none of this is viable or correlating for long range cartridges, and most LR BR shooters do not FL size necks.

 

[BoydAllen]

If you look at most short range benchrest rounds, the bottoms of the cylindrical parts (shanks) of their bullets, or the bases of flat base bullets come no where near their case shoulders. I have a pretty good selection of custom FB short range bullets, and I don't think that any extend more than .150 into my case necks, (with a .060 freebore). For reference the neck of a 6PPC is about .3 long. The most commonly used FL dies are built with the bushing cavity extending as close to the shoulder as is practical. If I wanted to raise the bushing, I would need a way to secure the top of the die so that it would not rotate in use. I could do that crudely but effectively with tape. Perhaps I will try leaving more of my necks unsized. I would think that this would be more of a factor if I were jumping bullets. Almost all of the time, I seat some distance into the rifling.

 

[Nude nut]

Good observation. Common FL bushing dies do not FL size the necks, and regardless of choice in body sizing, necks don't ever need to be FL sized.
To your question of neck sizing beyond seated bullet bearing, it does two things:
- increases bullet grip(tension)
- increases tension variance, and bringing donuts into play (even while seated clear of them).

If necks are turned and your load likes greater tension than provided by partial neck length sizing onto bearing alone, then FL sizing of necks may provide an overall benefit. That's not the same as any claim that eventually all necks would have to be FL sized, which is not true at all.
Most short range BR shooters(100-300) run with underbore cartridges that benefit from higher than normal pressures. It makes sense that these guys would reach for high neck tension, and/or soft seating for higher starting pressures. But none of this is viable or correlating for long range cartridges, and most LR BR shooters do not FL size necks.

mikecr,
Im only sizing the neck down to the boat tail junction and was uncertain of how after multiple firings if the unsized portion of the neck could cause any issues, from your reply I would guess that no issues should come from it.
Im going to just run with what Im doing with this batch of brass and see what comes I just cant see any sense in sizing below the boat tail junction when there is no bullet in that part of the neck and was also assuming that the unsized portion of the neck may centre better in the neck of the chamber.

Cheers Trev.

 

[fguffey]

Im only sizing the neck down to the boat tail junction and was uncertain of how after multiple firings if the unsized portion of the neck could cause any issues, from your reply I would guess that no issues should come from it.

I could say “not so fast” or ‘wait a minute”; because neck sizing instructions are always followed by compulsory memory work or “repeat after me”. Repeated over and over and over is the old saying about the case growing. It is said the case is first fired and then necked sized 4 times, (and then) it is said the case must be full length sized and then (again) the reloader starts over. I always ask how that can be, how can a reloader start over with a case that has been fired 5 times?

If a reloader is going to neck size and they want the same amount of neck sizing every time it seems (to me) they would finds a way to adjust the sizing die off the shell holder the same amount every time. For me that is never a problem because I use feeler gages, I use the companion to the press, the feeler gage.

F. Guffey

 

[Nude nut]

I could say “not so fast” or ‘wait a minute”; because neck sizing instructions are always followed by compulsory memory work or “repeat after me”. Repeated over and over and over is the old saying about the case growing. It is said the case is first fired and then necked sized 4 times, (and then) it is said the case must be full length sized and then (again) the reloader starts over. I always ask how that can be, how can a reloader start over with a case that has been fired 5 times?

If a reloader is going to neck size and they want the same amount of neck sizing every time it seems (to me) they would finds a way to adjust the sizing die off the shell holder the same amount every time. For me that is never a problem because I use feeler gages, I use the companion to the press, the feeler gage.

F. Guffey

Guffy ,
I dont have any issue setting up my dies to size how I want them to I size a third of the neck as thats all of the bearing surface thats in the neck of the case all I have asked is after repeated firing would the unsized portion of the neck cause problems.
I neck size only for the first three loadings then full length size to the measurment I take off the case after the third firing with a redding bump die then size a1/3 of the neck with my bushing neck die.
So my case are full length sized every time there on after with the neck sized 1/3 its length,
so a simple answer would be.
Yes this could cause a problem with a reason or no you will have no problem.

Cheers Trev.

 

[Tim Singleton]

No problem at all. Roll on

 

[BoydAllen]

+1

 

[fguffey]

I necksize for first 3 firings then full length size bumping shoulder 1 thou with a body die then run necks through a .336 bush in nk die only sizing a 1/3 of the neck where the bearing surface/boat tail junction ends.

I would like to know if there is any cons to sizing neck no lower than the boat tail junction even if only seated in a third of the neck in 308win with 155.5 Berger.

So my case are full length sized every time there on after with the neck sized 1/3 its length,
so a simple answer would be.
Yes this could cause a problem with a reason or no you will have no problem.

I guess there is something called partial full length sizing or sizing in degrees and then there is bumping; I have problems with bumping because some of my presses are not bump presses and I find it most difficult to bump the shoulder when more times than not my shoulders do not move when formed and or fired and sized. I understand it is a catchy phrase. It is something like immediate neighbor hood acceptance when moving the lawn.

Bumping the shoulder: I can not bump the shoulder without bumping everything on the case the die contacts. Again, I have bump presses and I have non bump presses.

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

And then again I ask: What rational would a reloader use when deciding the method and or technique when returning the case to minimum length or neck sizing. And then again what is the difference between ‘just neck sizing’ and full length sizing?


I was accused of being involved in some risky stuff, I did not agree. The accuser was a smith from Arizona, he was nothing like the bullies involved in the Internet today. He sent me everything he had on the chambers I was working on. And then, out of the clear blue sky he follows up with an email telling me he went back over his notes and drawings and said he just noticed something he had never noticed before. Because I had respect for the man I called Hodgdon and ran everything by them. They said there was no risk but the load (powder and bullet) would be at maximum or over maximum after I finished fire forming the cases. The difference was related to the difference between full length sizing and neck sizing and Hodgdon understood.


F. Guffey

 

[BoydAllen]

A die that is cut with the same reamer as was used to chamber the barrel that a case has been fired in, which is sufficiently short, can easily be used to bump a case shoulder without doing anything else, except putting an infinitesimal amount of the brass from the top of the shoulder into the bottom of the neck. I have a friend who has made just such a die. He is a little tight with his money (not from lack of) and does his own work. He built a .243 AI with the intent of sizing the cases with a Lee collet die, and bumping shoulders when needed with a home made bump die. I told him that since his loads were going to be on the warm side that cases would also become tight near their heads but he ignored my advice until that happened. Since he is a friend, and had done me some favors, I bought a $10 RCBS, non-carbide .45 ACP dies set at a local gun show, stripped the sizing die and gave it to him to use as a ring die, for sizing the bases of his cases, telling him that he may need to polish it out a little on his lathe. As it turned out, since the reamer dimensions were on the tight side, he didn't have to polish out the die. It works fine as is. That rifle is exceptionally accurate. It has a McMillan benchrest stock, a nicely done sleeved 700 short action, jewel trigger, and a heavy Krieger 8" twist barrel. He is retired, and the time that it takes for his three step sizing process does not seem to aggravate him like it would me.

 

[fguffey]

Boyd Allen, do not think I do not think all of that is wonderful but it has been many years since I have been able to talk to some about sharing ideals, dies and die making. I am always being told what they want me to know. P.O. Ackley had a friend that in my option was the master of die making.


I stopped by to check on him late one night, I asked the locals about him and I was told it was just terrible. They informed me that old man was working at a mill when suddenly he died. And I had to ask what was terrible about an old man doing what he loved to do his entire life and then suddenly die while doing what he loved to do. I suggested they should go find a place where old folks reside that do not know where they are, can not feed themselves or can not remember family members. I suggested, in my opinion that would be terrible. Anyhow, I did not make any new friends.


F. Guffey

 

[mikecr]

mikecr, Im only sizing the neck down to the boat tail junction and was uncertain of how after multiple firings if the unsized portion of the neck could cause any issues, from your reply I would guess that no issues should come from it.

I misunderstood you, and thought you were sizing neck length beyond seated bearing.
You'll be just fine with your plan. It's a good one.

 

[Nude nut]

Ok fellas,
Thanks for your replies I shall run this batch of brass sized this way until its done its time if I find any issues that pop up I shall lets yous know.

Cheers Trev.