Bullet goes to sleep mode
- Thread starter mike a
- Start date
DaveTooley
Gold $$ Contributor
Yes there is evidence of it. However slight it can be there and can extend much further down range than most think.
What scope are you using?
What scope are you using?
Sorry, not looking for questions to the question. But that's how we are (me included). What if I said I see it in two of my rifles? Accually I'm looking for thoughts on the phenomenon.
We're is this evidence? I'd like to read. I'm bored, that's why I asked the question. Out of primers and no brass left to fondle. Leupold vx3 4.5x14x50
A friend and I built a pair of 22/6mm Ackley heavy guns to shoot 80 gr Sierra MK bullets for 1000 yd plus groundhog shooting. Just sighting in at 100 yards mine shot 1/2"-3/4" groups. I shot his and it shot 1". I broke the news to him that mine looked like it was going to be the better shooter until I backed up to 500 yards and mine shot 2" +/- 5 shot groups and I shot a group measuring exactly 1" for 5 shots with his. His groups didn't open up at all. I was amazed. I had read that the bigger VLD design bullets didn't go "asleep" until 300+ yards. A lot of 1000 yard shooters I have talked to don't even test closer than 300 yards.
Ok Ggmac, it a howa 243 thumbhole varmiter, 24" heavy contour (I don't know the number). Bedded with trigger. 1/10 twist, 38.8 of imr4064, sierra #1515, .010 jump. Lapua brass, leupold vx3 4.5x14x50, whidden f/l bushing die .270, gives me .002 neck tension (roughly), I don't really know my velocity as both chronos I bought were junk and I returned them. Saving for a good one. My drop at 500 is around 36". Depending on conditions. My ballistic calculator says 3110 fps. Trying to think of more info I can give you but in the mean time your thought please. And don't talk bad about my Howa baby, I love her.
I was at Brian Litz’s seminar this February up in Tustin, MI and one of the subject of his presentation was this “phenomenon”.
His presentation was all the testing that he had done to date seeing if it can be documented. The long and short of it is after very extensive testing, and trust me he did more than you can imagine, he could not find any definitive prove that it existed. I think this material will soon be published so I won't give too much of it away...
I also think that he has a standing offer to anyone who is confident enough of what he is seeing this to come up and “show him the goods”. The offer I think is he will pay for the trip if it can be proven. Sadly he has not found anyone to take him up on his offer – I think his comment was “crickets” when the offer was made…
His presentation was all the testing that he had done to date seeing if it can be documented. The long and short of it is after very extensive testing, and trust me he did more than you can imagine, he could not find any definitive prove that it existed. I think this material will soon be published so I won't give too much of it away...
I also think that he has a standing offer to anyone who is confident enough of what he is seeing this to come up and “show him the goods”. The offer I think is he will pay for the trip if it can be proven. Sadly he has not found anyone to take him up on his offer – I think his comment was “crickets” when the offer was made…
Howas , good . Me need to know if muzzle brake . Ok enough goofy , I guess not a you didn't say and you answered every thing . I've seen the bullet group shrink a many times , but the first few times many moons ago , I had a hard time wrapping my head around it . I read a good article in PS . Rest in peace PS . I'll look for that article .
While bullets going to sleep usually happen with grossly overbore cartridges , the 243 is on the edge of overbore , so they say .
Gotta go , more later
What I've seen happen is , shooters usually have a issue , parallax not adjusted properly , a near bench crosswind ? , shooting diff lighting conditions etc .
Is your group at 100 , 200 same vertical plane ?
I've had it happen a looong time ago , Williamsport , 7 mm 300 Weatherby , was trying to get load development at 100 , didn't work , more like shotgun , 200 same 300 getting great , same load .
I guess it still needs to be proved but , I do believe the bullet is unstable and does get eventually spinning around it axis . The military , I think , has some good footage of the bullet leaving the muzzle yawing and then stabilizing .
Google it . I don't remember where the military footage came from .
See if B Litz s offer is true and try to document .
Good luck .
While bullets going to sleep usually happen with grossly overbore cartridges , the 243 is on the edge of overbore , so they say .
Gotta go , more later
What I've seen happen is , shooters usually have a issue , parallax not adjusted properly , a near bench crosswind ? , shooting diff lighting conditions etc .
Is your group at 100 , 200 same vertical plane ?
I've had it happen a looong time ago , Williamsport , 7 mm 300 Weatherby , was trying to get load development at 100 , didn't work , more like shotgun , 200 same 300 getting great , same load .
I guess it still needs to be proved but , I do believe the bullet is unstable and does get eventually spinning around it axis . The military , I think , has some good footage of the bullet leaving the muzzle yawing and then stabilizing .
Google it . I don't remember where the military footage came from .
See if B Litz s offer is true and try to document .
Good luck .
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It's wierd science! I rarely shoot 100. Just wanted to see a 1/2" group. Shot and shot. Never got there. 1" and better at 200 often. Scope was mentioned. I'll double check paralex.
Cricket here. Think I'll wait till is published. I wish it were true though. Then I could blame it on fairy dust and not me. Brian knows his s--t.I was at Brian Litz’s seminar this February up in Tustin, MI and one of the subject of his presentation was this “phenomenon”.
His presentation was all the testing that he had done to date seeing if it can be documented. The long and short of it is after very extensive testing, and trust me he did more than you can imagine, he could not find any definitive prove that it existed. I think this material will soon be published so I won't give too much of it away...
I also think that he has a standing offer to anyone who is confident enough of what he is seeing this to come up and “show him the goods”. The offer I think is he will pay for the trip if it can be proven. Sadly he has not found anyone to take him up on his offer – I think his comment was “crickets” when the offer was made…
DaveTooley
Gold $$ Contributor
I can't go into details but Dopplar radar tells all.
Also I didn't say you could shoot the difference but it's there.
In 38 years I have had two barrels that did this. One confirmed by a new owner (22PPC) and the other was early on in my career and I don't remember the details of the rifle other than it was a 280 Ack. hunting rifle.
Also I didn't say you could shoot the difference but it's there.
In 38 years I have had two barrels that did this. One confirmed by a new owner (22PPC) and the other was early on in my career and I don't remember the details of the rifle other than it was a 280 Ack. hunting rifle.
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There was a good article on this in the March 2004 Precision Shooting Magazine by Fred Baker. There were a lot of technical references by competent technical folks, William C Davis, Col Harrison, etc. Also there was considerable government research at Aberdeen and other places referenced. Col Harrison stated the "..so far as known, there has never been and reliable showing of rifles giving smaller dispersion at increasing range, nor any explanation of how it could be. Bullets after making their relatively larger deviation at short range would be required to turn inward, bullets in the right of the group turning to the left and bullets on the left turning to the right, low right bullets turning to the upper left, etc. After considering this, the reader will know weather he is prepared to believe it."
DaveTooley
Gold $$ Contributor
Parallax is why I asked the question. Very easy to add a 1/4-1/2" to your group size
There was a very lengthy thread on this a couple of years ago. ( I can not find it). There was many answers to this. I am totally unable to understand why a bullet that is traveling on a particular path would on its own (no wind) be inaccurate at one range (200) and then become dead on at say 600. If you could set targets at 200, 400 600, then 1000 yards (and allowing for drop by increased heights of the intermediate targets) this theory of 'bullets gong to sleep' should produce holes at say 10 o'clock high on 400, then maybe 2 o'clock high at 600 and then somehow be right on the money at 1000. One answer posted a diagram showing the bullet path looking like a cork screw. Since the bullet is unguided I see no reason for it to become accurate.
The above is a poor description but that merely shows how confusing this is to me if in fact is exists.
The above is a poor description but that merely shows how confusing this is to me if in fact is exists.
The loads , are they checked for concentricity , are they neck turned , does it happen with all bullets , weights , boat tails , flat base , nose design ?
If your bullet is forced to spin around its barrel time center then exits and starts spinning around its bullet center , well you get the idea .
If your bullet is forced to spin around its barrel time center then exits and starts spinning around its bullet center , well you get the idea .
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