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Bullet goes to sleep mode

positive compensation?

Well if you have a load with an extreme spread in the single digits, i believe that is what most long range shooters strive for, and you have tuned that load for 1000 yards i wonder what the maximum vertical dispersion is along the bullet's path?
 
Brian Litz offered for someone to drive there and shoot in a 300y tunnel..

If a 1 MOA 100y gun shoots under 1 MOA @ 1k it isn't smaller (bullets don't travel in MOA).. The idea that you "think" every gun/load/bullet must remain true to your belief that they must disperse no less then MOA through distances is wrong..

Ray
 
Well if you have a load with an extreme spread in the single digits, i believe that is what most long range shooters strive for, and you have tuned that load for 1000 yards i wonder what the maximum vertical dispersion is along the bullet's path?
You can see how bullet and atmospheric variables change vertical dispersion at any range for a given bullet's muzzle velocity using good external ballistics software. Here's the variables:

* Bullet BC; varies with how much out of balance it is. BC across a lot of bullets can vary up to 2 or 3 percent depending on their quality. Sierra Bullets gets less than 1% spread with their match bullets.

* Departure angle relative to the line of sight; varies with the bullet's time from case to muzzle and the angle the bore axis is to the line of sight when the bullet leaves. Varies with how far the rifle's center of mass is relative to the center of mass holding it; torque on the barrel axis varies with changes while bullets go through it.

* The vertical MOA spread in shot holes at 100 yards from muzzle velocity's drop difference will often be 50 times the 100 yard MOA at 1000 yards. 308 Win ammo for example..... 1/100th inch at 100 yards for a 5 fps velocity spread. 2 inches (2/10ths MOA) at 1000 yards. If no positive compensation exists for bullet drop/departure angle.

* Different air density in range bands down range due to temperature and wind changes. The wind above the line of sight is typically faster than in the line of sight; sometimes as much as 50% faster. It changes with terrain and the wind currents wiggling across them.

I've never chronographed bullets for long range loads; just used what others did getting best results. My tests' groups equal theirs. If positive compensation exists, I want the muzzle velocity spread to be right for the spread in muzzle up swing bullet departure angles above LOS to match that of bullet drop down range. I strive for accuracy; don't care about muzzle velocity spread measurement; if groups are tiny, the spread is right for the barrel.

That said, small spreads in muzzle velocity is a good place to start. Note the spread will be 1/3rd the size with a fixed rifle that doesn't recoil or is shot totally free recoiling compared to being held against ones shoulder. Highest average with a fixed rifle, lowest in free recoil.
 
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The vertical on the target is the direction The bullet is moveing In relationship to the point of aim. With a tuner you can see that relationship change .
I don't understand why someone would tune a barrel perfect and put a tuner on.
All you could expect is the same . If the tuner is set correct .
Where Tuners work is with fixed ammo with the same Es Fixed doesn't mean just factory RF Hand loads with low Es is the same as fixed RF
With the use of a tuner It is no problem reducing the hole size in the paper at 100 yards . Not only bullet hole size but total bullet placement . Larry
Traveling and fine tuning


Ray
 
Wouldn't this be exactly how to test whether or not it makes the rifle shoot better or NOT?

One would think to tune smaller, wider, more capable yet right?
What I keep seeing (for LR) from a tuner is: to improve accuracy from the best found tuner settings, the load has to be improved and tuned better, for the tuner is not capable by itself to get the best accuracy, and are limited to how much they can tune. But do seem to work respectably well to tune a bad or so-so load into better - IME

Edit:
Another aspect that I have experienced; after finding the best/optimal tuner setting to a petload, and then I tune and improve on the load itself, the optimal tuner settings have remained the same.
Donovan
 
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How else would we find out how to get the most out of rifle? Best possible precision? Widest possible window? Etc.

Tom
Stabilize the ES and let the tuner do the work .
Same as rim fire has done for years .
Find the tune above or below the point of aim The see which work best at longer range . Larry
 
Not real experienced with rim fire, but pretty certain they're not producing 65,000+-psi. Seems apples to oranges to me.

Moral here is, I don't know what I don't know. All I do know is I have had a couple, and in both cases I ended up with a couple barrels shooting damn good with exposed threads on the end. My testing isn't in a lab or on a computer screen. It is slow going, and until I know what I know....then I just don't know squat!

Tom
Fixed ammunition is the same . Rim fire or center fire most center fire you can adjust the speed . Rim fire you can't .
When useing a tuner you adjust your speed and tune with a tuner . Larry
 
@tom -
Based from yours and my experience as we replied with above, and now with further confirmation by Larry to tuners effectiveness: "to get the most out of a rifle?", the load is what has to be tuned in order to get more.
Donovan
 
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Sorry, not looking for questions to the question. But that's how we are (me included). What if I said I see it in two of my rifles? Accually I'm looking for thoughts on the phenomenon.

Stand your ground Mike. Kudos. While it is more than I know as fact, I recall reading some time ago about how some bullets at short range will not reach their
potential accuracy until more fully stabilizing beyond 100 yards. I'll research this.

http://dailycaller.com/2013/06/18/b...tent-at-long-range-than-it-is-at-short-range/
 
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I think less magnification used is a scope can lead to the shooter getting smaller groups.
Hence why at the same magnification groups could be smaller at 200 than at 100.

I thought of this when shooting my m14 with open sights at 100 and with a 9x optic at same distance with same load.

With the optic I could not for the life of me get smaller groups than with the peep sight. But it sure was much more work using the peep sight.
 
I can't go into details but Dopplar radar tells all.
Also I didn't say you could shoot the difference but it's there.

In 38 years I have had two barrels that did this. One confirmed by a new owner (22PPC) and the other was early on in my career and I don't remember the details of the rifle other than it was a 280 Ack. hunting rifle.
Dave, I have one. Certain load shoots in the one’s at 100 and 10” vert at 600. Best load shoots 3/4” at 100 and 1” at 550. 6.5-06 AI
 
Then check out the "tuner" links shown on the left side of...

http://www.varmintal.com/arelo.htm

This was interesting showing 100 and 600 yd tunes are different (assuming you can tune the vertical to zero)

http://varmintal.com/aeste.htm

LONG RANGE TUNE.... Here is an interesting set of trajectory plots. No matter how carefully one loads his ammo, there are going to be small differences in muzzle velocity. Consider a load with an average muzzle velocity of 2915 fps with a muzzle velocity variation of 15 fps. Then consider this load tuned for zero vertical at 100 yards that overcomes that small difference in muzzle velocity.
This same load will be out of tune by 73.23-71.50=1.73 inches of vertical at 600 yards. However if the load is tuned so that there is 12.21-11.92=0.29 inches of vertical at 100 yards (with the slower muzzle velocity hitting higher) then there would be zero vertical at 600 yards. This chart is for a 6.5mm 140 gr VLD bullet with a 0.64 BC. A similar chart or table can be made for each long range load. If you are in tune for zero vertical at 100 yards, you will not be in tune for zero vertical at 600 or 1000 yards.”
 
Post #283 explains why tuners enable smallest groups at only one range. Such is life with different trajectory curves.

The British fullbore marksmen knew that over a century ago; their 303's had better accuracy at long ranges compared to mid ranges. A link to the web site explaining it. Click on the pdf link to download it.

https://archive.org/details/philtrans05900167

22 rim fire competitor's set their barrel tuners one place for 50 yards, another for 100.
 
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Post #283 explains why tuners enable smallest groups at only one range. Such is life with different trajectory curves.

The British fullbore marksmen knew that over a century ago; their 303's had better accuracy at long ranges compared to mid ranges. I'll find the link to the web site explaining it.

This is 'positive compensation', a well known feature of rifles using the Lee action. Put simply, the barrel flex sees the muzzle rise during bullet travel down the barrel. So, a low MV round has a slightly longer bullet barrel-time and when it exits the muzzle the rifle is in effect being aimed slightly higher than one with a mean MV in the range; a fast one sees the opposite effect, the bullet exiting at a lower elevation and shooting lower at short range.

At longer ranges, 600 yards and especially beyond there, this 'positive compensation' largely cancels the effects of a large MV range on elevations on the target. This was a VERY GOOD THING given typical .303 arsenal ammunition MV ES values.

When UK all-range NRA prone / sling shooting moved from 'Service Rifle' and the .303 which primarily used the Enfield Number 4 rifle, backed up by the Mauser system Pattern 1914 as a short-range model, to 'Target Rifle' using the 7.62mm NATO cartridge in 1967/8, there were big problems for some years with various factors, a major one being ammunition (lack of) consistency with rifles initially built on WW2 era military actions. For those who could afford it, two rifles became the norm for use at different distances - a Mauser system build for 200-600 yard matches and an Enfield No.4 based one for 800-1,000 yards, the latter's 'positive compensation' giving a marked advantage at these distances, even with very heavy barrels compared to those in the 303 service rifle, also free-floating unlike the stock pressure-bedding that was part of the 'art' in making the No.4 perform. This situation lasted for at least 10 years into the TR discipline era with the Queens Prize winner in the annual Imperial Meeting using a No.4 based rifle for all the long-distance stages. What brought this to an end was the arrival of the stiff SWING action and its very rigid four-lug bolt which shot better than the Lee at all distances. Even so, many club shooters kept their No.4s going as their long distance piece for many years until the supply of heavy barrels ran out and they ended up being sold off at low prices as 'starter rifles' in the discipline mostly to tyros - many are still in service today, but nearly all shot-out despite the very hard hammer-forged chrome moly barrel material.

My first TR rifle back in the early 80s was an ex club 7.62 gun bought for the grand sum of £40 (50 odd US $) which was cheap even then. This was one of the many budget conversions done by G E Fulton of Bisley which simply replaced the barrel and extractor and cut the military forend and handguard right back free-floating the barrel. The club had had eight of these rifles which it had previously used in 303 form converted in 1968, this being the last example still retained but hardly ever used. It would have had a lot of rounds down it in its early years as a 7.62 and obviously nobody had ever done a de-copper job on it, probably just using '009' bore solvent - good for carbon, but which doesn't touch copper. Anyway, this rifle with very mild 7.62 handloads with 146-150gn commercial bullets produced a very strange range behaviour initially from a 'clean' barrel in the normal 2-sighter + 20-score match even at 200 and 300 yards. Sighter 1 would be very high - in the white at 12 o'clock, likely 5 or 6-MOA high; Sighter 2 just got in the 'black' at 12 o'clock some 3 to 4-MOA high, then score shot 1 would have approximately correct elevation and it would be pretty consistent thereafter. Nobody could explain this behaviour, then I read an article by Dr Geoff Kolbe of Border Barrels on the importance of decoppering. It took 10 days of continuous application and soaking of aggressive anti-metallic fouling solution to remove all the fouling, so bad was it - these barrels were VERY tight to handle undersize 7.62 arsenal bullets and raise MVs - but it changed the rifle's behaviour completely. It was obviously a combination of already low MVs with a coppered but carbon fouling free bore reducing them even further until a layer of carbon fouling was laid down that produced wildly exaggerated 'compensation' effects even at short ranges. At the time, nobody I knew had access to a chronograph, so I can only surmise what was happening, not prove it.
 
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Thanks, Laurie, for your post.

Positive compensation is a fact but sometimes hard to both explain and understand. If two trajectory curves/paths with 200 fps initial velocity spread are laid down at the same starting point,, their paths cross downrange at only one point. At ranges either side, paths are separated.

Smaller muzzle velocity spreads bring the trajectories closer together. If both muzzle velocity's average difference and extreme spread is 30 fps, positive compensation can still happen but be discerned only if both produce equally good accuracy.
 
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