Questions on load development at 100yd for Long Range?

[Joe Salt]

Whats with the flyer to the right Tom? That would have got you about 9" at a 1000 yards

Joe Salt

 

[comagutsa]

i just been through testing my new 6BR Hart barrel as i have the Australian 500m fly nationals in a few weeks

conditions have been crap , windy and mirage so i have been only able to test at 100m (I'm pushed for time so i cant wait for perfect conditions)
powder varget , 105gr hybrids, CCI BR4 primers
1st load test, i ended up picking 29.8gr as it was in the middle of the flattest even tho it wasn't best group, more me i'd say as gun torqued in rest (all shot at .010 off lands)



next i tested seating depth in .005 at 29.8gr varget


i don't really like jammed loads as of the risk of bullet pulling apart and powder going everywhere if i need to unload in match so i saw .020 and .025 jump were hitting on same line
so i tested them at 300m (also tested a few others inc .020 jam but they were crap)
conditions weren't the best and i forgot my flags but i needed to test and wind was gusty so i just tried to shoot as best i could in 10 shot groups to see how most were going


.020 had the best group with 6 rounds under an inch at 300m and 2 more just out at 1.2 and 1.4 inches but .025 also looked good as vertical is nearly the same as .020

now i picked .020 jump and have loaded 7 rounds each at 29.5, 6, 7, 8, 9 and 30gr and will fine tune these at 300m and then pick what works best then i will fine tune seating depth in .003 either side

whether its right or wrong it has worked for me in the past

 

[dmoran]

Stuart -
Thanks for the detailed report......

So your developing at 100, then tuning at distance (300 in this circumstance).... cool
Which is popular, and what most have said in there replies.

My original questions are pertaining to 100yds exclusively for all aspects, and was in hopes to see how people who do it at 100yd exclusively proceed to tune smaller/better accuracy from good working loads, and also from loads that aren't working. Like if they have vertical at 1000 when confirming, how do they go about getting it out when back at 100yd tuning, etc..

Regardless, good to see your results !.!.!
Personally, I would like to see how 005-Off compares to that 020 + 025-Off (it looks better to me).
Keep me posted, would like to see any and all fallow-on....
Donovan

 

[comagutsa]

Stuart -
Thanks for the detailed report......

So your developing at 100, then tuning at distance (300 in this circumstance).... cool
Which is popular, and what most have said in there replies.

My original questions are pertaining to 100yds exclusively for all aspects, and was in hopes to see how people who do it at 100yd exclusively proceed to tune smaller/better accuracy from good working loads, and also from loads that aren't working. Like if they have vertical at 1000 when confirming, how do they go about getting it out when back at 100yd tuning, etc..

Regardless, good to see your results !.!.!
Personally, I would like to see how 005-Off compares to that 020 + 025-Off (it looks better to me).
Keep me posted, would like to see any and all fallow-on....
Donovan

i couldn't get good results doing just testing at 100, then using it at longer distance then coming back to adjust at 100 as it was to hard to see any changes , just needed to stretch it out to fine tune
the seating test above was at .005 jam not .005 jump and yeah tested .005 jam it but wasn't great. haha
will let you know how it all goes
cheers

 

[Joe Salt]

Donovan I guess you got your answer! If you are shooting at 100 yards there is no way to predict what it will do at long range. Most shooter that have any experience with shooting 1000 yards knows you need to shoot at 1000 yards to get what you want ,Not 100! I'll give you an example I used my chronograph at 100 yards and shot a group that looked like Toms, But when I went to a 1000 yards I had nine inches of vertical. I was shooting 210 VLD's Jamed. So I backed off the lands by .020 and it then shot 5". So if your going to shoot 600 or 1000 do your loading for those ranges.

Joe Salt

 

[dmoran]

Joe -
That has pretty much been my experience as well.

What I am asking is for and from those who do it at 100 exclusively, to explain how they go about tuning and/or adjusting there established LR loads in fallow on tuning sessions. What they look for on the target in the fallow up tuning at 100yd, to offset what is taking place on the LR final targets.

Just wanting to learn....
Donovan

 

[Brians356]

Donovan,

FWIW you might review this obscure thread:

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/long-range-load-development-at-100-yards.3814361/

 

[dmoran]

FWIW you might review this obscure thread:

That thread is in part why I started this topic, and asking questions pertaining. While it does describe how to ruff in a load for LR at 100, it tells nothing how to tune established working or not working loads. All the 100yd methods I have seen tell little about ringing out more accuracy from a good load or fixing issues from a load for LR.
Donovan

 

[Brians356]

That thread is in part why I started this topic, and asking questions pertaining.

Sorry, I missed any reference to said thread.

 

[BartsBullets]

Donovan,

I put on a new barrel and tuned it at 100 and 200 yards for a day and a half. I had it shooting as good as I could get it at 100 yards. I'd say the gun was consistently shooting .200 3 shot groups or better.

I got in the truck and drove for 30 minutes to a friends farm that I can shoot at out to 700. My 100 yard tune was good for 3 inch 3 shot groups at 600.

I took 100 primed dasher cases and everything I needed to reload them on site. Within 10 minutes I had the gun shooting groups that were at or under an inch for 3 shots.

What did I change? Powder load and seating depth! It just took a little tweaking to get it to shoot. I used the labradar to makes sure the load was giving me the velocity range I wanted. After that it was just seating depth.

 

[Joe Salt]

Bart did you move the Labradar or does it work that far away? pictures are deceiving.

Joe Salt

 

[ZenArchery]

1) Are you after best possible accuracy or acceptable accuracy? Acceptable Accuracy

2) Say you get what you’re looking for at 100yd, but when confirmation testing you do not get the accuracy you desire, what do you do and how do you proceed? Figure out the problem. Which equates to me drinking too much coffee or just a horrible shot. Stop, figure out what I am doing wrong. Correct problem.

3) You get what you’re looking for at 100yds, confirm at desired distance and get acceptable accuracy, how do go about tuning it better/smaller/tighter yet? I don't shoot groups. Usually 1 bullet out to 600 yards (depending on wind, harsher the wind the more I will send at closer distances). Start working wind from 700-900 yards. Then focus rest of rounds on farthest pre-transonic range which is 1100 yards.

I would appreciate answers to all 3 questions from each reply....
Donovan

 

[BartsBullets]

Bart did you move the Labradar or does it work that far away? pictures are deceiving.

Joe Salt

Joe

It can be up to 18 inches away. The picture is a bit deceiving. It's with in the 18 inches.

Bart

 

[Joe Salt]

Thanks Bart hope mine makes it here before the shooting starts in May. My plan is to use it while shooting matches. They number each shot on a plotter sheet so you know which one got'cha. I haven't got a decent bench at the house so there is no way I can shoot a good group at a 100 yards.

Joe Salt

 

[dmoran]

Bart -

Appreciate your report very much.... Your 100 tune needed to be re-tuned at 600 mirrors what I typically see as well, and why I prefer to do it all at distance.

Again Thanks
Donovan
PS.... sending you a PM with a suggestion.

 

[JamesnTN]

Today I wanted to try some more 22 Dasher testing with the Berger 80 VLD. I shot these at 100 yards with my Magneto Speed attached. Each group is .2 heavier charge. My first group was a 0 ES then the next .2 went up 11 fps and then you'll see the ES started dropping back off as the powder charge increased until the far right it jumped to a 20 fps ES, the bottom left I opted to jump powder charge by .5 grains and you will see again the ES drop back down to 3 fps but the group opened up. I contribute that because in the past I've found once you approach 3400 fps with the Berger 22 cal 80 VLD they just won't shoot well.
Tomorrow I'll take the groups that shot 9, 5, 2, and 20 ES to 600 yards and shoot five shots of each charge.
Powder is null as its not available to the public.



I'll post pics of groups from 600 yard test for comparison of today's 100 yard test

 

[memilanuk]

I'll post pics of groups from 600 yard test for comparison of today's 100 yard test

Any updates?
,

 

[barefooter56]

Not during but later on I chronoed them and each load was under 10 fps actually without looking back the 36.2 was like 5 fps Es

I would suggest testing the 36.2 load again. if its really an ES of 5 then the SD should be about 2.5. That should equal very low vertical dispersion at long range. Try it again and see.
Take care,

 

[RemingtonAI]

I just want to say there is one thing i find particularly important. That is the need to shoot multiple groups of each charge. Personally i shoot multiple groups of each charge at both 100 and 300 yards. The reason is because you can shoot 10 groups all with the same charge and get different sized groups. So unless you consistantly shoots 1 hole groups how could you honestly differentiate between different loads and your own mechanical variables. In science, you would never consider a test conclusive unless you had many examples of each variable to rule out natural variances in each test group. When testing at range, in the wind, there are many opinions as you can see. However, for a scientific test to be conducted in an environment with so many variables and no way to quantitatively pin down which are responsible for what, it leaves one with a great deal of uncertainty when coming up with a hypothesis. For some, that hypothesis is good enough, and for others it may not be. Good luck. Jesse

 

[seymour fish]

I just want to say there is one thing i find particularly important. That is the need to shoot multiple groups of each charge. Personally i shoot multiple groups of each charge at both 100 and 300 yards. The reason is because you can shoot 10 groups all with the same charge and get different sized groups. So unless you consistantly shoots 1 hole groups how could you honestly differentiate between different loads and your own mechanical variables. In science, you would never consider a test conclusive unless you had many examples of each variable to rule out natural variances in each test group. When testing at range, in the wind, there are many opinions as you can see. However, for a scientific test to be conducted in an environment with so many variables and no way to quantitatively pin down which are responsible for what, it leaves one with a great deal of uncertainty when coming up with a hypothesis. For some, that hypothesis is good enough, and for others it may not be. Good luck. Jesse

Screw the one hole groups, I shoot one hole SHOTS