H20 Brass Weighing...The Truth...or somewhere in that range.

[savagedasher]

Thank you Sheldon,

I read your reply several days ago. I've been too busy to respond. It's amazing the caliber of shooters on this forum. I don't use quickload, and I had no means to calculate the difference between case volume/powder drop and velocity. I had a gut feeling that capacity would have a lesser effect than powder drop. You have provided strong evidence as to how much at least for .284. Now I have a ballpark figure how much gains I should expect to see.

1'' of vertical doesn't sound like much, but granted this was a small sample. If I did more cases my likely the ES of internal volume would increase and the benefits of separating would also increase.

I appreciate your response.

To find out how good your checking the case capacity repeat the same case 10 times .If it don't repeat with in .02 of a grain your method isn't working. Larry

 

[Sheldon N]

Glad to help out, and thank you again for taking the time to do the hard work!

Personally I've just used a larger eye dropper to fill cases and gone for a fill that is visually flush to the top of the neck. I wasn't shooting for weight sorting or volume sorting though, just wanted to get an average case volume for the purposes of Quickload calculations and getting something within 0.1g was fine with me to accomplish that.

Quickload is a handy thing. It not only models pressure and predicts velocity, but can also be used to help evaluate almost any parameter change in your cartridge. However, it doesn't beat actual real world data...

I'd love to see the test suggested earlier, average velocity of the 10 largest volume cases against average velocity of the 10 smallest volume cases with the same powder seating depth charge, over a quality chronograph.

 

[Endyo]

I'd love to see the test suggested earlier, average velocity of the 10 largest volume cases against average velocity of the 10 smallest volume cases with the same powder seating depth charge, over a quality chronograph.

I'll run this test over my Magnetospeed when I get a chance. Also, when I get some more Norma brass I'll weigh some pieces before and after to see if fire forming is introducing variation of internal case volume. We already know it should be increasing overall case volume. I want to see if it's doing it consistently.

 

[savagedasher]

I'll run this test over my Magnetospeed when I get a chance. Also, when I get some more Norma brass I'll weigh some pieces before and after to see if fire forming is introducing variation of internal case volume. We already know it should be increasing overall case volume. I want to see if it's doing it consistently.

Go for it . Any chance made in case volume will show. That is why I like the brass to be shot twice and not size to check the volume. Larry

 

[Joe Salt]

Endyo have you tried Alcohol there are now bubbles in it and I blow dry them with an air gun.

Joe Salt

 

[Endyo]

Endyo have you tried Alcohol there are now bubbles in it and I blow dry them with an air gun.

Joe Salt

Joe! Thanks for input. I was reading older posts and just read a suggestion to use alcohol. You guys are genius. I'll have to start over weighing only with alcohol as it's density is 80% of waters.

 

[Joe Salt]

Don't make yourself nuts, you will be burnt out before you get to try long range shooting.

Jo Salt

 

[Endyo]

Don't make yourself nuts, you will be burnt out before you get to try long range shooting.

Jo Salt

LOL! Wise advice. You should have seen me before the State match. I took a break from Match shooting during hunting season so I'm ready to make some matches.

 

[Dave Berg]

Joe! Thanks for input. I was reading older posts and just read a suggestion to use alcohol. You guys are genius. I'll have to start over weighing only with alcohol as it's density is 80% of waters.

I strongly recommend you skip the alcohol and stay with water. Whatever alcohol you choose will change density as you use it.

Rubbing alcohol for example (a mixture of isopropyl alcohol and water - 90/10 or 70/30). The alcohol is very volatile and evaporates. That's why it feels cool on your skin. It's also hygrospopic (absorbs water from the air). As a result the percentage of alcohol goes down and water goes up as does the density.

You could use fresh ethanol then dispose of it after each case. Just pour it into a tall glass with tonic water, ice and a slice of lime.

By the way, the "bubble" you refer to is known as the meniscus. As convex (humped up) as you can get it without running over is what QuickLoad uses.

 

[Joe Salt]

Gunamonth my basement is at 40% humidity so I don't think it will absorb any water. ethanol has got to stink to high heaven! My wife doesn't like the smell of Montana Extreme let alone that.

Joe Salt

 

[Dave Berg]

Gunamonth my basement is at 40% humidity so I don't think it will absorb any water. ethanol has got to stink to high heaven! My wife doesn't like the smell of Montana Extreme let alone that.

Joe Salt

Joe, even if your basement was at 0% humidity the alcohol will still evaporate rather quickly lowering the alcohol to water ratio and increasing the density. If you believe it works go right ahead but don't be surprised if your measured case capacity gradually increases.

Ethanol is the "active ingredient" in all alcoholic beverages. Pure ethyl alcohol doesn't have a strong odor and many women find both the smell and taste to be pleasant. In certain forms, such as tequila, Joe Nichols has reported that it makes their clothes fall off. Probably just an urban myth.

 

[Endyo]

Dave,

If I were to use regular isopropyl or rubbing alcohol say 90/10 mix. Do you think it would change enough over one sitting say one or two hours to make a difference?

I was planning on tossing the alcohol after every session.

 

[Dave Berg]

Dave,

If I were to use regular isopropyl or rubbing alcohol say 90/10 mix. Do you think it would change enough over one sitting say one or two hours to make a difference?

I was planning on tossing the alcohol after every session.

If you're just comparing or sorting a bunch of cases and don't care if your measured volume is representative of the real world you can use any liquid. Rubbing alcohol, gasoline, Wild Turkey 101 would all work. Will the specific gravity of the liquid change over a couple hours? Absolutely. Will it change enough to be noticable? Depends how sensitive your scale is. I wouldn't use rubbing alcohol but if you choose to I'd suggest 70/30 over 90/10 as there's less alcohol to evaporate.

Unless you have a way of accurately measuring the density of the liquid you're using as compared to water, the results you painstakingly collected are significant to that effort only. The next bottle of Walmart rubbing alcohol might be 88/12 or 91/9. The ratio will change over time as the bottle sits on the shelf. You could pick up a hydrometer and graduated cylinder on Ebay for $25, measure the alcohol content and convert the results to grains of water. Seems to me it's easier to just go with water to start with. When you buy QuickLoad (and you will) the expected input for case volume is grains of water at full convex meniscus. Might as well get started right - distilled water with a small drop of Dawn dish washing liquid per quart. I don't know what it is about Dawn but it's the best surfactant around.

 

[Endyo]

Thank you for input Dave. You have presented several valid points. Seems like water with a drop of dawn is the way to go. I'll have to try it to see if there are any catchfalls such as residue a change in readings, etc. I suspect there won't be.

The meniscus as you call it. What is the benefit/purpose? Why would Quickload require measurements like that? It would seem to me that this would give a false high. We can't fill powder past the case mouth. It would also be harder to control. I find a single drop of water is about 0.5 grains.

To flush:


One drop over


Two drops over.

 

[Sheldon N]

That is a pretty big difference, I would think that a flush case is the more consistently repeatable measurement.

 

[Endyo]

That is a pretty big difference, I would think that a flush case is the more consistently repeatable measurement.

I haven't tried it with Dawn dish soap yet. I imagine it would lower surface tension enough that the meniscus would not be able to form that high before breaking.

My gut is telling me that a flush fill will get the most consistent readings. I'm not sure what QL requirements are though.

 

[Joe R]

Endyo,
Your attention to detail is very impressive. Good work, very informative post. I am certain you will make High Master before long and before me. You have something that I cannot buy: young eyes.

There is another way to get to consistent ESs and SDs, I call it the Steinsholt/Cortina method because that's who taught it to me. When doing load testing over my chrono whenever I get a round that is 20 fps too low or too high I put that case aside to go with other high pressure or low pressure cases. I don't know why they perform differently than the majority but it doesn't matter why. Someday when I have more time I will try to figure it out, but not today. Steinsholt/Cortina told me how to redeem the high pressure ones, the low pressure I have yet to figure out a way. I'm guessing there are guys here that probably already have.

Kindest regards,

Joe

 

[Dave Berg]

Endyo,
Your attention to detail is very impressive. Good work, very informative post. I am certain you will make High Master before long and before me. You have something that I cannot buy: young eyes.

There is another way to get to consistent ESs and SDs, I call it the Steinsholt/Cortina method because that's who taught it to me. When doing load testing over my chrono whenever I get a round that is 20 fps too low or too high I put that case aside to go with other high pressure or low pressure cases. I don't know why they perform differently than the majority but it doesn't matter why. Someday when I have more time I will try to figure it out, but not today. Steinsholt/Cortina told me how to redeem the high pressure ones, the low pressure I have yet to figure out a way. I'm guessing there are guys here that probably already have.

Kindest regards,

Joe

 

[Endyo]

I appreciate the flattery Joe. You've taught me a lot and been willing to share knowledge very freely. You are actually one of those from Bayou earlier referenced in my initial post.

I ran the second part of the test I promised everyone I have to review the data before publishing it. I had several pressure spikes such as you mentioned. So I'm not sure if the data will be valid. I thought weighing down to +/- 0.02 on powder drop would have lowered my ES this was a second firing for this lot of brass.

The ES is fairly high for the 21 shot group. From our previous conversations I believe it is a neck tension issue. I haven't started annealing and I stopped neck turning after I went willy nilly on some Lapua brass.

Nothing else has changed in my reloading operation except that this brass is now twice fired. This is starting to confirm what I've heard before. Brass produces the lowest ES on first firing.

 

[Endyo]

Great job Endyo! That was very informative. In line with Sheldon's comments, I suggest you collect 8-10 cases at the extreme ends of the H2O range, lightest & heaviest, and shoot them over a good chrono. This would put a nice wrapper on your research.

Done.

Magnetospeed Results
21 rounds fired
Max : 2682
Min : 2606
ES : 76
Avg : 2660
SD : 20


Lightest 11: Avg = 2659.273 / Heaviest 10: Avg = 2661 / FPS diffeerence 1.727


Threw out the outliers both which occurred in the heaviest 10.

Lightest 9: Avg = 2657 / Heaviest: 10: Avg = 2667.1 / FPS difference 10.1


There was a large ES. On the second set of averages I threw out the slowest and fastest chrono reading. I believe the second set of data may be slightly more accurate. Nothing else changed in my handloading technique. Powder dropped to +/- 0.02 grains, Exact seating depth with sleeved Whidden die, Berger 180grain Hybrids, CCI BR2 primers