Lee Collet Die Not Working So Well

[Phil3]

I bought a Lee Collet Die to try to achieve best bullet runout on unturned brass. Its not working as expected and do not know why.

Setup: Forster Co-Ax press, Lee Collet Die
Case: Winchester new unfired case w/.0005" neck wall thickness variation. I selected this case for reasons seen below.

I measured the case on a Sinclair concentricity gauge and found the neck runout to be .004". Since the case neck thickness was just .0005", I had hoped to see that with the Lee Collet die operating on the interior of the case, that the outside would also be markedly better than the .004" runout. It isn't. The runout still remains at .004".

Perhaps insufficient force used on the press? The case neck does show little marks from the collet jaws. Was I mistaken in expecting the Lee Collet die to do something it is not capable of (align neck w/case body)? Should I only be doing this exercise on once fired cases? After all, I was trying to avoid the pitfalls of using a FL die on fired cases (stretching and cocking case neck).

Phil

 

[Erik Cortina]

You need to F/L size every time. If done properly, there are no pitfalls.

 

[Phil3]

The case necks that come out of the gun are pretty straight as measured on the Sinclair concentricity gauge. The Redding FL die, with optional carbide expander ball, results in notable runout on the case necks as measure on the same Sinclair gauge. This is with the Redding FL die set for proper shoulder setback and the expander engaging the neck as soon as practical without the case being bound between expander and interior of sizing die.

I am using the Lee Collet die in conjunction with a Redding body die to achieve complete resizing of the case.

Phil

 

[Erik Cortina]

The case necks that come out of the gun are pretty straight as measured on the Sinclair concentricity gauge. The Redding FL die, with optional carbide expander ball, results in notable runout on the case necks as measure on the same Sinclair gauge. This is with the Redding FL die set for proper shoulder setback and the expander engaging the neck as soon as practical without the case being bound between expander and interior of sizing die.

I am using the Lee Collet die in conjunction with a Redding body die to achieve complete resizing of the case.

Phil

Like I said, if done properly...

 

[BoydAllen]

If you are getting little puckers all the way around on the neck, you are probably using too much force. The factory method of setup doe not have the ram coming to the top of its stroke. Others, set the die for the very slightest felt toggle, with the ram, coming to the top of its stroke. Rereading your post, don't come to any conclusions with unfired brass. You are correct in that the collet dies cannot straighten cases. Fire them with a good stout load (hopefully one that is accurate) and then start with the collet die. If you have more neck tension than you want, and want to make the seating force less and more uniform, lube the inside of the necks, and carefully expand them with an expander mandrel in a die. In your case I hesitate to recommend this because I have some experience expanding .220 Russian necks to 6mm and IMO this is the worst of all presses for this task. What works so well for other tasks in reloading, die and case float, is a really lousy idea for using an expander die and mandrel. I base this on experience with several presses. On the other hand, since you will be expanding within the same caliber, perhaps you will not have the problem that I did. I hope not. One little tip: I compared using the neck die first, and then the body die, as compared to the reverse. Doing the neck first gave better results. I am a bit confused. Your first post said new brass. Have you use the two step sizing on fired brass? If so, what were the results?

 

[37Lincoln1]

I don't know all that much but the LCD works from the inside out. Seat a bullet then check your run out.

 

[Rem6br]

There isn't enough case support to actually straighten the case to neck runout
You will see your best results with once fired cases

 

[Phil3]

The case necks that come out of the gun are pretty straight as measured on the Sinclair concentricity gauge. The Redding FL die, with optional carbide expander ball, results in notable runout on the case necks as measure on the same Sinclair gauge. This is with the Redding FL die set for proper shoulder setback and the expander engaging the neck as soon as practical without the case being bound between expander and interior of sizing die.

I am using the Lee Collet die in conjunction with a Redding body die to achieve complete resizing of the case.

Phil

Like I said, if done properly...

I welcome your input and knowledge, but this is really very unhelpful...

 

[lrgoodger]

The Lee collet die will not straighten crooked necks. The best way to do that is to fire it in a straight chamber (and even then it doesn't always come out perfect, but most of the time it will). Once you have a straight case, the goal is to reload it without bending the neck. The Lee die is the ONLY die (to my knowledge) that supports the neck from the inside while sizing it. That is how they keep the neck straight. When forcing a neck that is un-supported up into a bushing, the shoulder will compress slightly from the downward pressure on the un-supported from inside and underneath shoulder. The thin side of the shoulder will collapse more than the thick side, causing the neck to tip in the direction of the thin side every time. Tight fitting neck walls in the bushing help keep it from being able to tip as much, so they do come out fairly straight. The bushing die with the sloppiest fitting bushing will make the crookedest necks. That is why the die companies can charge more for competition dies that have tighter tolerances.

Pulling a neck back over an expander ball tips the neck in the same manner, only the shoulder is being stretched (instead of compressed) by this operataion. The shoulder will stretch more on the thin side, tipping the neck in the direction of the thick side.

You will get the straightest necks on ammo reloaded in a custom full length sizer that has a neck honed to a perfect fit for your load. Such dies do not over compress the neck and then pull it back to the proper size with the expander ball. They squeeze the neck to the correct size in the first place. The best alternative to this is to full length size with a bushing die with the bushing removed and then size the neck separately with the Lee collet die.

 

[BoydAllen]

A bushing die with the bushing removed is a body die, and body dies are quite a bit less expensive, if they are available in your caliber. As I posted earlier, I tried the order both ways and doing the necks first and then the body worked the best FOR ME. Of course it is entirely possible that someone else's results are different than mine.

 

[Phil3]

If you are getting little puckers all the way around on the neck, you are probably using too much force.

Boyd, thanks for the helpful response.

No puckers around the neck, just a light mark from the collet, so minor I can not catch my fingernail on it.

The factory method of setup doe not have the ram coming to the top of its stroke. Others, set the die for the very slightest felt toggle, with the ram, coming to the top of its stroke.

I initially adjusted the die a full two turns in from where it contacts the Forster shell jaws. I did this per Lee's instructions to guard against exerting to much force. I backed the die off to one turn in, and found that I don't need anywhere the 25 lbs. force Lee says is necessary to close the collet, but am also developing a bit of a feel for the collet. I am not using all the press travel.

Rereading your post, don't come to any conclusions with unfired brass.

OK, working with fired brass only.

You are correct in that the collet dies cannot straighten cases. Fire them with a good stout load (hopefully one that is accurate) and then start with the collet die. If you have more neck tension than you want, and want to make the seating force less and more uniform, lube the inside of the necks, and carefully expand them with an expander mandrel in a die. In your case I hesitate to recommend this because I have some experience expanding .220 Russian necks to 6mm and IMO this is the worst of all presses for this task. What works so well for other tasks in reloading, die and case float, is a really lousy idea for using an expander die and mandrel. I base this on experience with several presses. On the other hand, since you will be expanding within the same caliber, perhaps you will not have the problem that I did. I hope not.

Curious that the Forster press does not perform will using a mandrel expander. If the neck tension is too tight, I can order a different size mandrel for $5 from Lee. I just might do that to do some experimentation.

One little tip: I compared using the neck die first, and then the body die, as compared to the reverse. Doing the neck first gave better results.

You mentioned that in another post and will try it both ways.

I am a bit confused. Your first post said new brass. Have you use the two step sizing on fired brass? If so, what were the results?

No, I have not yet tried the full two-step process on fired brass. Some temporary (hopefully) medical issues allow me in the garage only for a very short time. But, did get out there and used the Lee Collet on once fired brass, measuring around .253" on the neck (223 Remington). I sized five cases. Two were unchanged, the other three were about .245". I think I just did pull hard enough on the press for the two, since I went back out and sized them again, and they measured like the first three.

Next step is to size with my newly received Redding body die and, insert a bullet and see what bullet run out is.

Phil

 

[steve4102]

Fire the case. Then neck size with the collet die. Then seat the bullet and check bullet RO.

 

[boltgunluvr]

Exactly which collet die are you referring to? The factory crimp die or neck sizing die? I use both and have zero......and I mean 0000000 issues. I do believe they work the best with presses that do NOT utilize cam-over.

 

[Phil3]

The Lee Collet Die, or the one that sizes the neck only, and does with a collet squeezing the neck around a mandrel. I checked the Forster Co-Ax press with a test indicator while under stress when sizing a case. It does not cam over.

Phil

 

[Phil3]

I tested 5 1x fired cases. All factory ammo. Three with "Winchester 223 Rem" headstamp, the other two "P M C 223 Rem".

TEST PROCESS:

1) Neck sized all cases using the Lee Collet die. Measured external neck diameter to be sure all were actually being necked down. All necks definitely smaller than fired diameter.

2) Body size the cases using Redding Body die, adjusted for approximately .003" shoulder setback.

3) Fit bullet using Redding Competition seater (micrometer top), adjusted for 2.25" overall length (OAL). Bullet is Sierra #1400 53 grain flat based MatchKing bullet.

RESULTS:

Three of the rounds show .004 bullet runout on the ogive. The others are .003" - .0035". I have yet to reverse the process and body size first and neck size next. Still, even just neck sizing with no body sizing gives similar results.

This collet/body die process gives unimpressive results, with no improvement at all over a FL die with expander. I must be doing something wrong, either in my process, skills, or measurement. Or does this process work in theory, but not so much in practice? Did I spend $50 on the collet and body die for nothing more than extra work?

Phil

 

[lrgoodger]

Factory brass is pretty notorious for uneven neck thickness. Regardless of which neck sizing method you use, the result with uneven necks will be runout. Let's say for instance that the brass you are using is two thousandths thicker on one side than the other. When you fire it, the outside diameter of the neck will be round (assuming your chamber is round) and the inside will be oval shaped because of the thin side of the neck. When the Lee neck sizer is used, the thick side of the neck will be closer to the mandrel before sizing. As you squeeze the neck in, the collet jaws will force the thick side against the mandrel first. As you continue to apply pressure, the thin side of the neck is forced against the mandrel, BUT, that causes the brass at the neck/shoulder junction on the thin side to be pulled toward the center of the neck, pulling the neck/body alignment off the centerline (the body can move a little inside the Lee neck sizer).

The only way to avoid that, whether you use the Lee neck sizer, a bushing neck sizer or a full length sizer, is to turn the necks so that they are a uniform thickness all the way around. That's why folks who are interested in small runout use Lapua brass (which has the most uniform necks right out of the box), and even then those who are most anal about it turn the Lapua brass to remove that last half thousandth of neck inconsistency. Once you have done that, the Lee collet die gives the least runout on repeated reloadings.

 

[Tozguy]

It seems to me that if you are measuring runout on the ogive, you are downstream of the bullet seater and should wonder about that too before drawing conclusions.
Seating a relatively short (53 gr.) FB bullet is more of a challenge than a seating a heavier BT style bullet, even for a good seater die. The inside neck chamfer has to be right and when seating depth is shallow the ogive runout you are getting might be coming from the seating operation. Measuring close to the neck (off the ogive) would give a better indication of inside neck runout.

Also, I switched to Lapua brass for my 223 a few years ago and never looked back.

 

[Toby Bradshaw]

He's measuring runout on the whole loaded round, so even with turned necks there will be runout if the case itself is banana-shaped because of uneven wall thickness the length of the case. Uneven neck wall thickness is a good predictor of wall thickness variation throughout the case.

+1 on trying all of this with Lapua brass. Even good dies (properly used) can't fix bad brass, although bad dies (or operator error) can cause problems of their own even with perfect brass. Remember that this brass is being fired in factory rifles, which are very likely out of square/parallel and have oversized chambers, exacerbating the negative effects of wall thickness variation on TIR.

 

[Phil3]

After more testing, it is apparent that inconsistent neck thickness can thwart even the best efforts and equipment, as stated here. I do have Lapua brass and just picked one out of the box. Runout on the neck was about .001" max and neck thickness variation about .0005". Seated the bullet and bullet runout was about .001".

Tried a piece of 1x fired factory ammo with WCC headstamp. Found a case with close to the same quality as the Lapua. I used the Lee Collet on it, then Redding body die, and then seated a bullet. Bullet runout is a bit more than .001", far better than on some other cases with more neck thickness variation.

I do want to some more testing, but it does look like brass that has widely varying neck thickness will present constant problems with concentricity. Given that neck thickness on the brass runs from .011 to .013, a variation of .002" from side to side, which is a 17% variation in neck thickness. If something is going to give during sizing, it is pretty clear that 17% weaker brass will be it.

I don't mind buying Lapua brass for my bolt action, but given how rough the AR-15 is on it and the resultant shorter life, need some other brass between Lapua and the cheap stuff. People seemed to recommend LC so will try that next.

Phil

 

[Rem6br]

Lake city brass would probably be good