Powder Throwers

[StephenPerry]

Shooters
This thread will deal with powder throwers used for BR and recreational loading. I am not interested in talking about the RCBS Chargemaster, 123, or ABC electronic dispenser they are not powder throwers. There is a big difference.
The idea of adjustable powder throwers goes back into the 1880's by a gentleman named John M. Barlow. John started the Ideal Manufacturing Co producing the Ideal No 5 powder thrower. An all metal thrower, no plastic bottles back then to attach, the picture and operation of it is what all throwers today resemble using the gravity feed principle. Now I am no authority here just a pervere of thoughts. Actually I am getting my info from a book I dug out the library trash 20 years ago. The book being 'The Complete Guide To Handloading' written by Philip B. Sharpe Third Edition 1949. I have never read a reloading or shooting book close to this in quality and presentation. The only other book I have enjoyed as much is 'The Accurate Rifle' by Warren Page. Now that we are done with the Rat killing on to the throwers.
Most of you guys have and use a thrower. Brands don't mean much to me because of what I said earlier powders throwers work on the gravity feed principle. I have a Redding, Lyman 55, a Lyman/Culver, Lyman/Jones, and now a Bruno.They all work fine. The ease of adjustment and repeatability of throws is what counts to me. I am a benchrest shooter.
Others I have not had but would like to find are the Belding & Mull, Bonanza BR Thrower, RCBS Uniflow, Saeco, Harrel, Jones Modern, Dodd. There are probably others but I don't have the inclination to dig them out.
A good manual on the powder throwing operation is the ABC's of Reloading by Dean Grenell. Dean now a Californio if he is still around built his own loading area and it looks like mine cluttered. A good read for you snow Penguins when you know who isn't cooperating.
As I seem to say don't trust your neighbor, learn for yourself. Like to know what powder throwers you have and how do use them. Reloading and shooting will probably be around for you after all your relationships are gone as it should. Shoot to Win Shoot for Fun.
Stephen Perry

 

[hairtrigger]

I use a Harrel custom 90 to throw charges which I weigh on a MXX 123. I have found most charges of h4895 to be within 2 to 8 kernels, and adjust from there with a trickler or a pair of tweezers. My thrower will throw the wild card charge every once in a while to the point I want to weigh each charge.

 

[Mikem]

Stephen, I don't have a big investment in my powder thrower, its a Lyman,$60 to $70. on top of an RCBS stand,,modified to fit).

Its accuracy depends on the powder being used, but with Varget, and using the large adjustment as much as possible, and the fine adjustment as little as possible,,this improves its accuracy) it will through with in .2g. 95% of the time, But I always trickle all loads with a Redding trickler anyway. Its not accurate enough to not trickle, for me anyway. I just set it to through about .2 to .4g below my desired load, then trickle on an electronic scale, checked often using test weights I make for each load.

Its hard to use with some powders like 4064, its like cutting gravel, but fine Gran powers work much better.

Its not the best unit, but its not to bad, and it works, and I wouldn't know what unit is the best, even if I did want to replace it.
I hope this in the type of info your looking for.
Mike..

 

[kaferhaus]

I've tried most all of them except the Jones..

They're all based on the same principal with a minor and often expensive "tweak" or two.

None of them are even in the ball park compared to a good electronic scale.

James, as usual is right. I kept one, a Redding for throwing prairie dog loads.

For long range shooting, a tenth of a grain makes a difference.

 

[tightneck]

James, I'd love to see some pics of the Rail and 600 or 100yd tunnel that you use to prove your theory that a tenth of a grain will affect accuracy. My only point is that there are far too many factors in the conditions to determine that a 36.0 and a 36.1gr charge will be any different at the target IMHO. Obviously finding the right load is paramount, but dropping a charge that is a tenth one way or the other isn't gonna kill your group necessarily. Proving that it will would require some serious testing in a condition-less environment. I shoot short range BR and use a Harrell's with the roller bearings mainly because its smooth as butter. I have also thrown many charges with it and weighed them and it is very consistent with the smaller powders. I don't think that any powder thrower made will be consistent with the coarse powders, so trickling into a digital scale is the method I use for them.

 

[BoydAllen]

In discussions of powder measure accuracy, one subject that is neglected is practice,of measure technique). An electronic scale is a good aid for this.

Another thing worth knowing is that technique may be powder and measure specific, that is, different powders, and different measures may require different techniques to achieve optimal results. Also, don't be too quick to adopt a technique just because you read it in an article. Try a lot of different combinations for yourself. The one that works the best for me, as tested multiple times, was found by personal experimentation, not by reading.

I have one of the roller bearing Harrells that I like a lot. The fact that it has a built in clamp, that the detents allow for smaller charge changes than any of the other Culver conversion clones,very close to .1 gr. of 133), that it is set up for powder bottles, and that it is so smooth and doesn't suffer from build up on the drum are all reasons that it is my permanent range measure.

At the matches that I have attended there are good shooters have switched to the Charge Master, but so far the match results have failed to show an advantage to their use. On the other hand, new toys are fun to try.

 

[StephenPerry]

Shooters
So far Mike M and Tneck are agreeing with my presentation. I refute James's contribution as he is an electronic scale freak in my mind. The RCBS Chargemaster is the only electronic powder dispenser I see on the BR Ranges. Lester and Neil have nothing to prove with their throwers their records and wins prove them.
I spent 4 hours throwing 133 one night with my Redding. No throw varied more than .2 and at least 80% were .1. At that time I had barrels agging .1 at 100 yd and .23 at 200 yd better than most tunnel shooters.
Keep the comments coming in. I want to hear from the common guy not somebody with something to sell.
Stephen Perry

 

[tightneck]

James, I dont follow the long range stuff really but it would appear that you do quite well at your game from some of the stuff I've read. I contend that the reason for your success is not the matter in which you weigh your charges but your ability to read the conditions and know when to pull the trigger. This is true of all good shooters. If you give your carefully prepared ammo and rifle to someone who cant read the conditions, then bad groups will follow. But I'll bet if you load all your record rounds with half of them at your optimum charge and the other half at .1 over that, you will be able to steer them into a pretty nice group.

 

[StephenPerry]

James
Do you take your 123 to the shooting range for testing? How long have quality electronic powder dispensers been on the market? Don Geraci a many times National Champion and many others used powder throwers in their careers. Like many oldies say they never got beat by an illegal bag and now I say established shooters using powder dispensers are losing as much as usual. Also most dispensers are affected by wind and climate where throwers handle themselves well. Personal opinion from someone with a long BR career.
Stephen Perry

 

[StephenPerry]

James
Thank you for the discourse but this is a Thread on powder throwers and you have done what I hoped you wouldn't do. But you did. I neither have the notion or inclination to combat your powder displacement practices. Most of us mere mortals cut our teeth on powder throwers so I suspect that is where we will stay a tenth here a tenth there. Adios Commanchero come back when your electrity gives you up.
Stephen Perry

 

[StephenPerry]

Sorry No Name
But this is a powder thrower Thread. We know you guys have swamped this Web with 123 tests why don't you leave them where they belong in the who cares column. The average dude will never own a 123 and if he was inclined he would buy a Chargemaster. I see no 123's at any BR matches and I go to the big ones. Maybe you should donate a few 123's to the Super Shoot that's probably the only place someone would see one. You guys use every oppurtunity to hawk your 123's on this Web and you don't care whose Thread you disrupt. James made the statement he needs a controlled environment to get his results. Sorry guy BR is shot outdoors and powder dispensing is done there too. You lose on this one. Now you got something to say about powder throwers say it or back to your powder labratory for more tests. Sorry man had to do the rat killing on you.
Stephen Perry

 

[JamesnTN]

Stephen,


You asked about powder throwers I gave you results of my testing on the ones i have had in hand. If you are foolish to believe that a +/-.1 is good enough then it be so on your belief. You guys asked me how do i know .1 makes a difference i told you of the 1000 or more targets I have shot and proved it on paper and across a chronograph. I also statd that a powder dispenser as powder levels drop the weighed charge varies by .6 and more but you tend to refuse to believe that either.
The reason the 123 is popular is because it's a cheaper alternative to weighing charges and cases over a chargemaster and the expensive powder throwers that again are not consistent.
Then you state I have to use a controled enviroment to weigh my cases yes this is so but I also use a scale that weighs .01 of a grn. But my shooting is done in real world conditions same as you. I offered to drop enough charges at my next match to shot 2 targets and then precisely weigh enough to shoot 2 targets to proove to you and others weighed charges do make a difference. You decided not to acknowledge that as well. If you feel your thrower and your techique can deliver .1 grn accuracy I'll put up $10,000.00 to say I'll bring a lab grade scale and prove to you you can not throw an entire bottle and hold .1 grn. I weigh my charges to +/- .01 grn thats 10x more consistent than you will drop one I gurantee that. One other thing how many 1st place winnings have you gotten in these so called big name matches and how many records have you produced using your technique?
In 1000/600 yd competitions I'll gurantee you that every record shot has been with weighed charges even in F class and high power these guys weigh there charges as well. If it didn't mean anything then the board and forums would not have so many postings of this.
You started the thread yes and wanted info on powder throwers and this is what you got how inconsistent they are compared to weighing. I test in real world conditions and compete in them to and if you feel still your techinque is better than mine well I invite you to come out to Oak Ridge Tn on Nov 18th for a registered IBS 600 yd match and beat me in a match. If you beat me I'll pay your way to and from and even pay your entry fee.

Back yrs ago I got ridiculed laughed at and called everything but a liar on an open forum on groups i use to post for information purposes and would post these over on GGVG and guys thought they should be over on BR central so they hot link my posts on there forum to make fun and joke about achievments I did and called me out and prove myself. Well in 2001 I headed down to TX to shoot a good ole guy rifle match on Tac Pro's range and took 1st place home with me. I then went to other shoots of the likings and again won 1st place. I shot a few 1000 yd shoots but decided the distance for the amount of shots was not worth my time and then began shooting 600 yd competition and in my 1st yr I shot 3 world records and have placed in top 3 enough times that I no longer care to bring home a plaque as I have them stacked in boxes all over collecting dust. I made believers out of those that made fun of me and who knows you may just had been one of them. I shoot a 22 caliber rifle on a factory action and to most they think it's a handicap but those that think so I prove to them it's not a place ahead of them in alot of matches. I got called out and came out and proved myself now I'm going to call you out and prove to me your theory is better than mine. I'm sure you been in this game way longer than I but sometimes technology is a good thing and I'll take my 1200.00 scales and my 700.00 spinner and my 4000.00 ogive machine and countless hrs in testing and developing and offering my findings to thos who don't have access to such equipment to help them in the long run and try and save them headaches in the process as well.
Do you ever wonder what caused that flyer when you know the conditions were right when you squeezed the trigger? See for me I eliminate all that doubt and leave it up to me and hope for the same conditions for 15 secs as when I sit down the line I'm 100% confident in the ammo I pull out knowing it's as good as it can get all the way down to weighed primers.

Now I pulled all my other posts and will pull this one in 30 mins or so after I'm sure you read it and accept or decline my offers.

 

[StephenPerry]

James
Congratulations you finally found a forum you can run your tests and sell your product. I don't believe you have a place in Short range BR. Powder throwers have been around since the 1880's and will be around when you can't get electricity to run your machine.
In Short Range BR, the only game I play, the RCBS Chargemaster is the only powder dispenser I have seen, not saying that can't change. Point is I asked that this thread be on powder throwers and will be happy when you keep your promise and remove your Posts. I will be happy to discuss anything you want about BR on another Thread. Give the little guy a chance to talk about their powder throwers, chances that is all they will ever use.
No hard feelings on my part I respect shooters comments. Things just didn't work out for you on this Thread James, it has happened to me.
Stephen Perry

 

[Mikem]

If the pi$$ing contest is over. I decided that if it cost $5900. for equipment just to weigh powder to reload good ammo, then Ill find a new hobby. And Ive been reloading since 1965.

 

[StephenPerry]

Mikem
Thanks for your replys. You are an old salt like myself. In 1965 I was 15. I was by then casting and swaging rifle & pistol bullets for my dad and loading them. He bought a Lyman 55 thrower and an Ohaus 505 scale. I still have both. I carry the scale in my BR case. Walt Berger and a few other notable shooters have borrowed my scale from to time to check powder loads. Like I said I see a few RCBS Chargemasters at the Shoots but makes me wonder for how long. Most if not all our BR loading is done outside where slight winds play havoc with any electronic powder dispencers, especially those measuring in 100ths. At Raton in July I saw a few but they needed their own power sources.
Mike I would say your thrower from 1965 will throw dead nuts with the BR powders we use today especially with what I call dust powders, ball powders, or short cuts. Might be cute for some but labratory experiments reading down to the 100th's of a grain are uncanny and at best unreliable. Short Range BR which still is the Ultimate in Rifle Acuuracy requires a powder thrower that will repeat a throw time after time. Also in a blow you want a thrower that will continue to operate. In swampy condition a thrower can be adjusted for humidity. God gave us BR guys powder throwers knowing that we don't have the patience to count kernel after kernel and we want time to jaw not throw 5 times for each shell because a dispenser goes wacko from me walking by. They do too.
More thrower comments please.
Stephen Perry

 

[hairtrigger]

Gee wiz. I thought the original question was something about what powder thrower you use and how you use it. I just happen to use it with a digital scale. I don’t sell them. I bought mine from James Phillips because he had the best price. I do not know him. I have never been to a benchrest match or a long range match. I shoot long and short range varmints and have learned, and continue to learn a great deal about hand loading from all of you here. Thanks to both Mr. Perry and Mr. Phillips for sharing your knowledge.

 

[StephenPerry]

HT
You don't need to go to a BR Shoot to know good reloading. Just have fun with what you do. BR shooting can be an obsession. I told of my 1949 book 'The Complete Guide to Handloading', by Sharpe. In 1949 the shooters back then were as sophisticated and proficient within their equipment as we are today, maybe more. HT keep reading and shooting That's the way it's done.
Stephen Perry

 

[Mikem]

Stephen, I don't compete, and have no BR competition at my gun club, but short range BR is all I shoot, I reload all at home in my gun room, throwing all loads light on an electronic scale, then trickle to the load.
I do make up a test weight for my most common loads, and check it with several scales and test weights. But it doesn't really matter just what the test weight weighs, all of my loads are the same as it is, it could be + - .05g max.

With electronic scales, you need to let then settle out, close all windows, turn off any heat or cool,no temperature change or air movement) But for me there easier to trickle on to, rather than a beam scale, And if you check the scale with the desired test weight before each load and right after, and stop trickling just as it hits that weight, Its close. I know mine are with in .05g, of being the same. And that's what counts.

In the end, my SDs are in single digits, and that's good enough for me. I only shoot about 3 to 4000 rds a year now, mostly 6BR, with some 223 and 308 thrown in for fun.

After two heart attacks and two heart surgeries, I'm just lucky I can still reload and shoot, and I can still keep them in the .3s or less, on a bad day.

FYI when I started reloading, in 65 I was 22 and just out of the service, and was a Deputy Sheriff sharp shooter, we didn't have SWAT back then.

So all you guys out there, just keep loading and shooting, and stay safe, it can be a life time of fun.

Even if you don't compete professionally, you always compete with yourself.
Mike..

 

[NeilNE]

I use a Harrel for fine powders and a Hornady for stick powder, then measure the powder charge. I will probably buy a R

 

[NeilNE]

I use a Harrel for fine powders and a Hornady for stick powder, then measure,beam scale) the powder charge when using the Hornady. I also got away from the electronic scales but well probably buy a RCBS Master for stick powder. I shot 100 to 1K BR and F-class

I also agree with Boyd Allen, about powder measuring techniques.