[B]Desperate for advice[/B]

[Headseeker]

I am wanting to put together a rifle that is highly accurate with atleast .25 moa. I know their are people out there that build these types of rifle's like tactical operations inc. that use Krieger barrel's and whatever else and make tac drivers. But they cost almost 4,500.00... I am not interested in spending $4000+ on a rifle by all means since I am actually kind of poor in the pocketbook.
I do need some input if someone could point me in the right direction with getting a real nice rifle going for a good price.

I need advice on the following option's:

*Stock type and recommeded companies
*Stock finish
*A variety of tactical actions similar to surgeons
*Barrel "I hear Krieger is hard to beat" but open to advice
*And lastly but most important, someone that's gunna put it all together for me and not gunna charge me my dominant eye to pay for it.

I talked to a guy at tactical operations, and he said he could put together a masterpiece in .308 in his x-ray rifle series. Yes they are nice, but I got the feeling I can have a rifle built just as nice as theirs at a cheaper rate if I take the right steps.

Some advice will be highly appreciated.

Dave

 

[jb1000br]

So you are looking for a tactical type rig i assume?

GA Precision can do the same for under 3K

JB

 

[dreever]

Dave,

Perhaps you'd better quote a price range not including scope/rings/mounts which can easily tack on another 1K+.

What is your intended use? Are you leaning towards a sniper-wanna-be tactical rig or Benchrest or along the live Varmint lines.

Tell us what the real yardages are that you intend to shoot?

It would be easier to narrow it down knowing what you want to use it for.

Danny

 

[Headseeker]

So you are looking for a tactical type rig i assume?

GA Precision can do the same for under 3K

JB

Yes, I need a tactical rifle in .308 for competing in nasty field conditions in various places. The main thing I am looking for is accuracy. Without the scope, I am willing to dump around 3k on it when all is said and done. The rifle is going to be getting wet and dirty so I need the operating system to be excellent for field use. As far as the stock is concerned, it too will be getting a little nasty. As far as range I would like it capible of shooting 3moa @ 1200yds under perfect conditons. I have already made up my mind on the barrel, I just need some help on the rest.

 

[StephenPerry]

Dave
To be fair with you tactical rifles do not shoot 1/4 " groups. Only benchrest rifles can shoot 1/4" groups. If I were you I would be realistic and say that I would want a rifle that is reliable and shoot a 1/2" group from time to time. Don't know too many varmints smaller than a 1/2". Besides if you are looking for a field course rifle very few shooters if any can read the wind to allow such groups in the field. Benchrest shooters have the advantage of the best barrels in the shooting world and still need wind flags to shoot under a 1/4" groups. I respect your project but be realistic in what you expect. I run a benchrest shoot and never get tactical guns trying to hang with us. Tactical has it's own niche that I truely respect.
Stephen Perry

 

[Headseeker]

I don't mean to seem like I am going against anyone at all, but that's not what tacops inc. is telling people. You can go to sniper central "mele's forums" and see what people are posting in there. A few Canadian's are shooting better than .25 moa at 100 yds and posting pictures at sniper central. Unless they are all lieing, and are actually shooting 100 yds. But tactial operations inc are selling their rifle's like hotcakes. The only thing that turned me off was the price of their xr-51 for $4,550.

As far as benchrest, I can't stand the sport, just my opinion. I have much higher respect for real world operator competition's who run and gun reguardless of wheather condition's. Besides, you get one of those benchrest rifle's to dirty, and it's not going to operate mechanicly very well.

To tell you the truth sir, I am not quite sure what realistic is. Just telling you what I saw from other picture's etc.

Dave

 

[StephenPerry]

Ignorance is bliss. Let us know how your tactical turns out. Shoot the targets with moving backer. Mother Nature and moving backers have a way of dispelling myths. I doubt those Canadian boys shot with moving backers. In fact I know they didn't.
Stephen

 

[Headseeker]

I am dumb as you know what when it comes to LRS competitons with benchrest. And I am by no means implying Canadian's are great shot's or anything even know they have a few. I understand that benchrest rifle's are more accurate as far as benchrest is concerned. But it would not function well for what I want to use it for. If I was to take a benchrest built gun into one of the those competition's, and the BOS got a little to dirty, chances are I am in a lot of trouble. Or at the very least, are not going to be accurate at all dirty compared to a rifle built for field purposes. If I am wrong tell me.

So that brings me to the issue I am having with what is true in all aspect's of shooting. However, reguardless, my rifle has to be built for the worse possible condition's which could be right after a downpoor crawling through mud, swimming in salt water and every other beautiful day you could imagine.

I hope I am not giving the impression that I am completley new to the shooting world. I have been in a few competition's, but I have never had a personnal rifle of my own custom made. So that's why online forums attracted my attention. I can find online knowledge in the area I am looking for.

Thanks again,

Dave

 

[Cheechako]

Dave

If you are going to spend that kind of bucks for a rifle and expect it shoot "at least .25 moa" you are going to be very, very disappointed. I'm one of those Benchrest shooters that you dislike and am here to tell you that 1/4 minute groups are not easy under any conditions. The guys who claim they do it routinely are seldom able to demonstrate it for you. I can show you pictures of tiny groups,less than .100 moa) that I have shot and I'll be the first to tell you that most, if not all, of them were just plain lucky.

Don't bad-mouth any shooting sport Dave. It only lends support to those who would take all of our guns. And take it from an old guy, the day will come when you can gun but can't run and Benchrest will look pretty good to you.

JMHO

Ray

 

[StephenPerry]

Dave
You are doing a good job of seeking info. This Forum has a large variety of areas. I enjoy all kinds of shooting and respect them all. When you have your gun made you will find out the guns limits and your own. Better to die trying than to not know. Anytime.
Stephen Perry

 

[kaferhaus]

The accuracy you're asking for is ONLY available from a benchrest rifle in the hands of someone who can properly point it.

Tactical rifles aren't .25" guns... they may wobble and wiggle just right once in a while and shoot a group that good, but they'll never do it consistently.

Army sniper rifles are MOA guns.... it's very difficult to shoot one to it's capability from the positions they have to shoot from anyway... so a rifle any more accuracte than that is a moot point.

Much of what you read and "see" on the sniper boards is BS and sales hype. 99% of those guys are "wannabes" anyway.

Benchrest is THE accuracy game, period. Tactical "matches" test the shooter much more than they do the equipment.

I've no doubt a talented shooter could win those matches with a $2,000 rifle.

A trued Remington or Remington clone action "predator etc." with a good barrel in a good stock with a Nightforce or some comparable optic would be plenty enough "rig".

 

[StephenPerry]

One thing I think tactical rifles are some of the best looking rifles I have ever seen. And they do what they are intended to do.
Stephen

 

[memilanuk]

Dave,

As much as it pains me to agree w/ the Bench Resters,being a High Power Rifle enthusiast) ...

A rifle that can shoot real no-shit 1/4 MOA groups 'all day long' is not exactly as common as the Internet would make it seem.

Yes, I've got a handful of targets that have groups down in the .2-.3 MOA range... but when I compare that against the overall average... I recognize them for what they are: statistical flukes. Same way I don't start sacrificing chickens under the blood moon if I see a couple embarrassingly large groups now and again

The BR guys are shooting very specialized rigs, w/ small herds of wind flags, mirage boards, poured concrete benches, chambers w/ neck clearance in the *ten thousandths*, custom made 'boutique' bullets, triggers that go off if you twitch wrong, and uber-high magnification scopes,except the Hunter guys). Recently on another board, someone posted the results from a group BR match... had to list down thru 19th place to find someone who agg'ed bigger than .25" for five, five shot groups. But that's the key there... *aggregate*, and w/ awful damn specialized gear. If you want to believe that guns made to necessarily looser specs,as you yourself pointed out w/ the 'dirty' comment), and w/o all the dedicated 'support equipment' is going to agg on a par w/ the full blown BR guns... well, I think you'll have fun trying, at least.

Oh, and a Savage will do much of what you want w/ no problem... it's done me proud the last year and a half or so of tactical and F-Class matches, from 100 to 1000yds.

But if you have the money to do it, a Surgeon action,$900-1000), McMillan A5 stock w/ all the adjustable hardware,$800+), Badger Ord DBM system,$350), Rock or Kreiger or Broughton barrel,$300+), chambering,$150-300), and other miscellaneous assembly,trigger, sniper-fu coatings, etc.... $300-500)... runs just a tid over $3k and will definitely be a no-holds barred rig that will give you *no* room for excuses! Throw on a NF NXS 5.5-22x50mm w/ MLR reticle,~$1500)... and go to town.

Sure is fun spending other people's money!

 

[Headseeker]

Dave

If you are going to spend that kind of bucks for a rifle and expect it shoot "at least .25 moa" you are going to be very, very disappointed. I'm one of those Benchrest shooters that you dislike and am here to tell you that 1/4 minute groups are not easy under any conditions. The guys who claim they do it routinely are seldom able to demonstrate it for you. I can show you pictures of tiny groups,less than .100 moa) that I have shot and I'll be the first to tell you that most, if not all, of them were just plain lucky.

Don't bad-mouth any shooting sport Dave. It only lends support to those who would take all of our guns. And take it from an old guy, the day will come when you can gun but can't run and Benchrest will look pretty good to you.

JMHO

Ray

Hey bud with all do respect, you have to be careful with what you say espcially when it's not true. I never badmouthed the sprort or said I hated anyone. The only thing I did say is that I hated benchrest as a sport. But on your side, it's my fault because I do not know all about benchrest therefore it is my false knowledge of the sport that gives me my beliefs.
Anyhow to get down to business, I am extremely serious about getting this started asap. I need a field accurate field precision rifle reguardless if it can't shoot benchrest abilities.
My only requirement is that it's .308, totally field proof and is as accurate as a field rifle can be.

A question I have is what are the huge differences between a benchrest and a tactical rifle that make the benchrest so much more accurate? I know there are different bolt companies, different barrel companies, other than the stock, someone fill me in. Thanks.

Also, I still need someone who can give me some diretction, as to who to get in touch with to start my project. So far I have heard that GA precision makes a tactical rifle under 3k, but what do you get for that? What kind of group's are they getting? Etc.

Thanks gentlemen.

Dave

 

[memilanuk]

It doesn't really matter,to a degree, we're not talking Farmer Bob out back in the quonset) which smith you get to put it together... If you spring for those quality components, it'll most likely,actually more like *will*) far outshoot you and 99.999% of the people who ever get behind the trigger.

Go over on Snipershide.com, and dig around. You'll see plenty of rifles from George Gardner, Jered, HateCA, etc. even Alan Warner and they all shoot pretty damn well. As I said, my *Savage* has kept up w/ some of the high $$$ rigs, in matches. Actual deployment... well, lets not get too silly here! Point is, the nut behind the trigger matters a *lot*, and you can't buy that at any gunsmith.

It's almost starting to sound like you're trying to buy your way into the winner's circle or something, trying to 'buy' a 'guarantee' of 1/4 MOA.

 

[Headseeker]

It's almost starting to sound like you're trying to buy your way into the winner's circle or something, trying to 'buy' a 'guarantee' of 1/4 MOA.

No, no, no I don't want to give anyone that intepretation. But there are 2 major component's that are a must for accuracy, the rifle and the shooter. If I had the best setup in the world, and can't shoot I am also in trouble. But to switch sides, I could be the old white feather himself, but if I have a crap setup, I will not be winning competition's with it.

Dave

 

[memilanuk]

Ole Whitefeather *did* have a crap setup by today's standards.

The other way of looking at it is you can buy all the zoot-capri toys, made by all the top names, and then work on trying to live up to the systems capability. Kind of like handing the keys to a Formula 1 racer to a kid straight out of driver's ed. Sure, he'll never be 'held back' by the system... but by the time he gets even able to handle half the ability of it he may have a different idea about what direction he really wants to go.

Best thing I can tell you is see on the tactical boards like Snipershide, West Coast Tactical,the two I'm familiar w/), etc. if someone near you has a rifle from a good 'name' smith and will let you handle it. Otherwise... find a match scheduled near you and go as an observer, talk to the shooters and form your opinions based on what they say, vs. how they do.

Good luck,

Monte

 

[Headseeker]

Thanks a lot bud.

Dave

 

[dreever]

Dave,

It's going to be tough if not down right impossible to get a full length .308 pushing 175 grain Match Kings to shoot below 1/2 MOA even 50% of the time. There are guys that will tell you different, and even pull a group out of their wallet to "prove" the point. Well, that group is just one, and probably a fluke at best. To Agg a consist ant .250 or better it will take a true bench rest rifle chambered in 6PPC shooting over wind flags with a very good shooter behind the controls. No way can a Tactical Rig do this.

You speak of Carlos Hathcock. Speaking from experience from that Era, a heavy barreled Remington 700 with a 3-9 Redfield was "State of the Art", and I guarantee you it was lucky to shoot 1 MOA most of the time.

Your replies starting with the word "BUD" to those that ruffled your feathers somewhat, or disagreed with what you are looking for are not appreciated on this site. If you think a belligerent attitude will gain any respect here, you are sadly mistaken. In fact I do not think our Moderator will tolerate much of it, and if it continues will exercise his rights at parental controls.
You asked for opinions after all, so please respect all the opinions that you are given. There is a wealth of knowledge available here from some very experienced riflemen, and I for one respect each and every one of them.

Danny Reever

 

[jb1000br]

HS -- this forum is mainly BR oriented...obviously, but there are a few of us here that get down in the dirt as well...

When i recommmended GAP, and posted the pic of my rifle...that IS what you get.

Though i would go with an A3, as i don't much care for the butthook on the a5...

my details:
broughton 7.4 contour 11 twist, crown at 25"/badger brake
trued rem 700,i provided)
Cerakot mil=spec OD coating,VERY nice stuff)
McMillan A5 desert camo
Badger DM bottom,5 and 10rd mags readily available from GAP and others)
Harris LMS bipod
Eagle Stock pack
Throated to fit 175SMK, and 155 Scenar into the mag, yet still engage the lands)
Tuned Shilen trigger
Seekins Precision mounts
and it now wears a Mk4 16x Leup...until i get a 5.5-22x50 NP-R1 Nightforce


First ever five shot group with 168 Federal GM ammo at 100 from the bipod looked like this:

Havent been able to match this with handloads :,

RE: 1/4MOA guarentee/claims etc.

it WILL and HAS happened many time from bipod'ed rifles...even have a few 1/4 or better 3 and 5-shot groups myself, but don't spend any amount of $$ on a bipod rifle, and EXPECT that...like someone else said...YOU WILL BE DISSAPOINTED.

Tac-ops claims are specifically worded, as are others that claim such. They will not guarentee that any shooter will consistantly shoot 1/4 MOA...they guarentee they are CAPABLE...damn near EVERYTHING is CAPABLE...but the BR system is the only way for it to happen with anything nearing consistency.

Please ask if you need any other specs.

Also, the forums at snipershide.com are a great resource for this type of thing as well.

JB