Wind: Holding off vertically

[JFrank]

Oh.
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Brian, I started a thread a while back called windtalkers
On the competition page where several people weighed in, you may find interesting and or helpful.
Best wishes/ Shoot Small
J

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Oh.

stage n. A point, period, or step in a process or development; phase; level
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Thanks for being so helpful. Your previous post seems to have two stages as well.
After reading both, I chose not to address the part about his flag chart and to address your second paragraph by standing by what I've already posted.
That's all. No need to get snarkey about anything.

 

[Brians356]

Brian, I started a thread a while back called windtalkers
On the competition page where several people weighed in, you may find interesting and or helpful.
Best wishes/ Shoot Small
J

Thanks. Re your original question in that thread: if one takes any version of the charts dicussed here (for a right-twist bullet in a theoretical unperturbed laminar-flow air mass) at face value: there is no wind direction that displaces POI into the upper/right quadrant.
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[JFrank]

Thanks. Re your original question in that thread: if one takes any version of the charts dicussed here (for a right-twist bullet in a theoretical unperturbed laminar-flow air mass) at face value: there is no wind direction that displaces POI into the upper/right quadrant.
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Theoretically correct although as discussed there are several variables that will displace a round high right.
I think it’s important to understand that these simple charts are a base line of single point wind , also helpful as a vehicle of communication.
I can create several parallel scenarios in my mind one being from my billiards days- it’s called the tangent line or more simply understood as the Natural path of the Q ball after contact with the object ball un influenced by English.
Once you understand that now you can get the rest much easier.
Sorry for taking the long way around the barn it’s still early
J

 

[Greyfox]

Thanks. Re your original question in that thread: if one takes any version of the charts dicussed here (for a right-twist bullet in a theoretical unperturbed laminar-flow air mass) at face value: there is no wind direction that displaces POI into the upper/right quadrant.
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Interesting observation. The charts are helpful in that they give you an idea of what to expect, so they aren't useless. In practice where I shoot most, the predominant wind is from the south/southwest (which is lower right corner), but due to tree lined slopes on either side, we do get switches early and often. Most hold offs are to the right as the wind tends to push most shots high and to the left. However, a change in the light coupled with a switch will occasionally push a bullet high and to the right. In practical application, there is no substitute for sighter shots. Although there are some ranges that are flat and have consistent pushes from one direction, the majority that I've competed on have unique permanent obstacles like berms, tree lines and such. Also, a change in velocity is sometimes difficult to detect if it is on one flag out of four. Seeing these things comes with a lot of practice and/or competition. If one is familiar with a particular range he will learn what to expect from a particular condition. Getting to a match at an unfamiliar range a day or two early for practice helps too. Practice and hands on experience trump everything else. IMO the most important thing is to have a rifle capable of shooting 1/4 MOA or preferably better. You can't discern what the wind will do if you have no confidence in what your rifle will do. 1/4" rifles are a rarity no matter what keyboard shooters will tell you.

YMMV,
Rick

 

[Brians356]

Reading as many guides to competition wind shooting as were easy to find online (and in one book I happen to have) there are nearly always copious references to relying on sighters. I've not yet competed in any type of match, at any level, so excuse this question: Which types of organized matches (if any) do not provide for arbitrary sighters or non-record shots during live fire (timed or not)?
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[JFrank]

Reading as many guides to competition wind shooting as were easy to find online (and in one book I happen to have) there are nearly always copious references to relying on sighters. I've not yet competed in any type of match, at any level, so excuse this question: Which types of organized matches (if any) do not provide for arbitrary sighters or non-record shots during live fire (timed or not)?
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Mid and long range Br

 

[INShooter]

IMO the most important thing is to have a rifle capable of shooting 1/4 MOA or preferably better. You can't discern what the wind will do if you have no confidence in what your rifle will do. 1/4" rifles are a rarity no matter what keyboard shooters will tell you.

^^^^THIS!!!

 

[D Coots]

Shooting 100 and 200 yd group. It's amazing how you can "get away" without much verticle hold at 100, but you need to exercise more care with verticle hold or it will eat you up @200.

Later
Dave

 

[Brians356]

Shooting 100 and 200 yd group. It's amazing how you can "get away" without much verticle hold at 100, but you need to exercise more care with verticle hold or it will eat you up @200.

Later
Dave

I've observed portions of a few 600 and 1000 yd BR group matches here (usually variable wind) and noticed a lot of rapid fire being employed. I'm beginning to grasp why.
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[JFrank]

Interesting observation. The charts are helpful in that they give you an idea of what to expect, so they aren't useless. In practice where I shoot most, the predominant wind is from the south/southwest (which is lower right corner), but due to tree lined slopes on either side, we do get switches early and often. Most hold offs are to the right as the wind tends to push most shots high and to the left. However, a change in the light coupled with a switch will occasionally push a bullet high and to the right. In practical application, there is no substitute for sighter shots. Although there are some ranges that are flat and have consistent pushes from one direction, the majority that I've competed on have unique permanent obstacles like berms, tree lines and such. Also, a change in velocity is sometimes difficult to detect if it is on one flag out of four. Seeing these things comes with a lot of practice and/or competition. If one is familiar with a particular range he will learn what to expect from a particular condition. Getting to a match at an unfamiliar range a day or two early for practice helps too. Practice and hands on experience trump everything else. IMO the most important thing is to have a rifle capable of shooting 1/4 MOA or preferably better. You can't discern what the wind will do if you have no confidence in what your rifle will do. 1/4" rifles are a rarity no matter what keyboard shooters will tell you.

YMMV,
Rick

I’m confused here , perhaps you’ll help me understand what you’re saying,
Firstly in your opinion a 1/4 Moa or better rifle is the most important thing to instill confidence because you can’t discern the wind without it, but then you say 1/4 rifles are only on line??

 

[Greyfox]

I’m confused here , perhaps you’ll help me understand what you’re saying,
Firstly in your opinion a 1/4 Moa or better rifle is the most important thing to instill confidence because you can’t discern the wind without it, but then you say 1/4 rifles are only on line??

My quote shows that I said a rarity, not nonexistent.

RICK

 

[JFrank]

Ok .
But your still saying two different things are you not.

 

[Warren Dean]

Poodle fight!! Poodle fight!!!

 

[JFrank]

Poodle fight!! Poodle fight!!!

Your absolutely right Dean..

It really doesn’t matter.
Carry on..
J

 

[Greyfox]

Ok .
But your still saying two different things are you not.

Well, I don't think so, but I'll see if I can make it clearer. Of course, this is just my opinion and worth what you pay for it.

IME a rifle that is either out of tune or ssimply doesn't have the accuracy potential to shoot 1/4 MOA or better will not consistently do what the wind charts indicate. I said that 1/4 MOA rifles are rare. Please allow me to clarify that. I think that it is safe to say that there are virtually no factory rifles that can be relied upon to shoot 1/4 MOA consistently. Further, military production rifles like ARs also fall into that category. Only custom rifles designed and built properly will consistently shoot 1/4 MOA and most of these will be chambered in commonly used benchrest chamberings. This might include 6 & 22 PPC, 6 & 30 BR, and variations etc. Most of these rifles are owned by folks who regularly compete in some form of benchrest competition (most, but not all). If you calculate all of the shooters involved in some form of benchrest competition you still come up with a tiny number as compared with the total numbers of gun owners in this country. One other point I might add. A well known group & score shooter said a while back that in his experience less than 75% of the rifles that came to the line in competition were in tune and therefore incapable of winning a match. If you check the scores at the major benchrest matches you will see that a significant number do not shoot a .250 agg. This is in national competition with the best shooters and firearms in the world. You can blame this on conditions, equipment malfunctions or whatever, but the fact remains that the score is what it is. Proof - SCOREBOARD I shoot in Ultimate Benchrest Competition, which is a relatively small number of shooters in the south central US. We will be starting our 9th or 10th season starting in March. I don't have the total number of matches, but it is significant. Total shooters in a year would probably be about 300 or a little less. There are four classes of rifles. During that nine years or so, if memory serves, there have been less than a dozen perfect scores in two classes. The other two have none. In theory, a rifle capable of shooting a .358 group could possibly shoot a perfect score, but this has only happened about a dozen times. Many of these shooters are world class and have won in competiton in other organizations. The rifles are the same ones shot in other benchrest organizations.

So, to repeat, comparing the number of proven 1/4 MOA rifles to the total number of long guns a 1/4 MOA rifle IMO is a rarity. Feel free to question or correct my conclusions. I have been known to be mistaken now and then.

Rick

 

[JFrank]

Rick
I’m sorry to even put ya through that , great clarification and thank you very much.
Now I just gotta find me one of them 1/4 minute rifles.. lol
Much respect
Jim

 

[Greyfox]

Rick
I’m sorry to even put ya through that , great clarification and thank you very much.
Now I just gotta find me one if 1/4 minute rifles.. lol
Much rest
Jim

No problem. Wrting things out helps clarify my thoughts. Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean I'm right
Rick