My experiences with the V3 Autotrickler/Autothrow

Discussion in 'Reloading Forum (All Calibers)' started by Turbulent Turtle, Jul 24, 2019.

  1. Butte Sink

    Butte Sink

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    In that situation I go over .02 and stay consistent doing that throughout if needed
    In the whole scheme of thing, it probably doesn’t matter a whole lot, it’s just pease of mind for me
     
  2. Turbulent Turtle

    Turbulent Turtle F-TR competitor

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    Just a quick update.

    Yesterday I decided to charge 100 cases for the upcoming TSRA match this coming weekend. I was planning on using the "I have no ammo loaded" excuse to bow out of the match after my dismal experience in Raton, but my wife explained that I had to do it. Maybe she wanted me out of the house so she can get the new flooring in.

    So, I set up the A&D w/ V3 accoutrements and let the scale warm up for 30 minutes. Then I zipped through 100 cases in about 35 minutes. I was surprised at how quickly it was moving along.

    I set the throw to be about 1.5gr short and the thing just zips through. I would have the odd overtrickle every once in a while and I would fish out a couple kernels with my tweezers. These kernels would be thrown in the case when the trickler would stop at x.08 instead of x.10. It was all I could do to pull the case from the box, run my brush through the neck and place the funnel on it, just in time to see the scale display the target weight. Empty the cup in the funnel, throw it back on the platen and then place the loaded case carefully in the tray as the Autothrow cycles and the Autotricklers starts dispensing. Fumble for the next case and rinse, repeat and do it over an over.

    I seat all the bullets after I finish loading the powder. I like to inspect all cases with a flashlight to be sure and then take my time loading the bullets carefully.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2019
  3. dnellans

    dnellans

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    I just got mine setup last night and did appropriate adjustments, etc. While its a neat machine I can't say I'm overwhelmed by its accuracy and there are a few quirks (like why the autotrickler stops spinning while the powder throw lever moves back into position, then starts again).

    Looking for for 40.60, I would guess 50% of the charges came out at 40.58 or 40.62 with the other 50% being spot on.
    Given that the resolution of the scale is +- .02 when it reads 40.60 that means 40.58-40.62 could really be 40.56-40.64 in the worst case.

    If all of them came out at 40.58 or 40.60 I could just have a tray of powder and drop one kernel into the low one easily and quickly, but if its over and under having to fish a grain out of that shot glass wastes at least the 10 seconds it takes to throw it.

    Am I expecting too much from this? What are other people's process with adjusting the trickler (or dropping the last grain in by hand) to get 40.60 -every time-?
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2019
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  4. Turbulent Turtle

    Turbulent Turtle F-TR competitor

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    In your 40.60 load, there are 2,030 kernels of powder if each kernel weighs .02 like Varget does.

    So, if you have 1 kernel over or 1 kernel under, we are talking about a deviation of 0.049%.

    Life is too short...
     
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  5. dnellans

    dnellans

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    Life is too short to try and tell people on the internet what they should or shouldn't care about when you don't have any context...

    This past weekend -in competition- I went 3/10 at 1505 yards laying down cold bore to timing out at 90 seconds on the stage.
    3 misses were spotted and had good vertical but I blew the wind, 3 more 2 misses were low and 1 was high but had good wind. 1 I couldn't self spot.

    Clearly lots of factors could have contributed those misses, shitty form, neck tension, BC not perfect, incorrect zero, a gun that won't hold the plate at 1500 yards, or about a dozen other things I try and control
    But if I can eliminate any possible variance from powder without it costing me time in the reloading room, then I will.
    If you can beat me at 1500 yards pouring powder straight from the keg into open top cartridges in the loading block, more power to ya. I've never had a guy I'm losing to on Sunday tell me they're using powder scoops because its good enough and so much faster (which we can all agree is a good thing).

    I can already measure to .02 consistency with my current process but it takes me about 35 seconds to do it, drop or remove a few grains of powder, and check it afterwards.
    Since I'm shooting 3-5k reloaded rounds a year, I'm hoping the autotrickler can get me to the same result but shaving 10-20 seconds off my reloading time.
    That would give me 10-20 more hours back for other things in my life each year which I'd appreciate.

    If anyone has constructive feedback, my question remains. How are you tuning your end to end powder throwing process with the V3 for optimal speed with the desired accuracy.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2019
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  6. dgeesaman

    dgeesaman Gold $$ Contributor

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    One FPS at 3000 is 0.03%. While it’s a very small number, it is measurable and is not always irrelevant.

    David
     
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  7. Turbulent Turtle

    Turbulent Turtle F-TR competitor

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    I love it!

    I love talking about infinitesimal differences in performance. It's fun to get lost in inconsequential measures.

    The equivalence that David talks about is a false one. He would have us believe that the difference in velocity attributable to a single kernel of powder is one FPS, and that it is totally predictable and occurs every time the same way. If that were the case (sorry for the pun) there would be absolutely no need for any discussion about standard deviation when it comes to muzzle velocity. Everyone who loads to the kernel should have an SD of 0, all the time. The SD for my match ammo is definitely way down in the single digit range, but it ain't 0.

    What I find interesting is that when I do ladder tests, I usually have loads that are .3 grains apart. Surprisingly I cannot predict the differences in MV between the loads. At one FPS/kernel, one would expect a delta of 15FPS for each .3 grain increment. Bummer, it doesn't happen like that. Not only that, sometimes the MV goes down when the load increases. Sometimes there's no difference and sometimes it's quite a bit of difference.

    I seriously do not believe that a single kernel in a load of 2,030 kernels makes a difference that is measurable, consequential, predictable and repeatable.

    However, that said, if you reread my post above, #42, in it you will find that even though I I do not believe that a single kernel makes a difference, I still measure my load to the kernel. My latest V3-assisted loading session yielded numbers very close to what @dnellans described in his post and I explained how I keep loose kernels of powder next to the scale and how I use my tweezers to either throw in a missing kernel, or take one (or more) out as needed. I get about 50% dead nuts on and another 20% one kernel short. Adding a kernel takes one or two seconds, which do not get in the way as I throw the kernel directly into the funnel while the next charge is already being dispensed. For the 30% or so that need one or two kernels taken out, that takes a few seconds and does interfere with the process as I pick the kernels from the cup that goes on the scale.

    Lots of OCD people on this specific forum.
     
  8. dgeesaman

    dgeesaman Gold $$ Contributor

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    If I wanted readers to believe that, I would have said it. It is my fault that a false equivalence could have been inferred and I left it open.

    Whether you find it to be significant on the output side of things (and we obviously tune for a velocity node to make the velocity less sensitive to powder charge deviations), is another matter.

    If the tune is any good, I agree that a single kernel is not consequential on velocity.

    But some serious competitors will always control their inputs to the maximum possible extent. It might even be easier to do than to perform objective sensitivity studies on every variable in the system. So it remains measurable, predictable, and repeatable as an input variable.
     
  9. Turbulent Turtle

    Turbulent Turtle F-TR competitor

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  10. Acyr

    Acyr Mediocre FTR Shooter Gold $$ Contributor

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  11. dnellans

    dnellans

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    Thanks for getting back to my question guys.

    I started with slider in middle and drop 2.5 grains under, trickler set to 5 grains in 10 sec as described in setup.

    2.5 under seems pretty conservative and i can get more like 1 under from the drop without any issue.

    The trickler never really even runs at full speed this way it’s already ramping down to stepping pretty shortly after the drop.

    i’m loading on a solid oak bench, i wonder if the motor vibration is causing drops of two grains as mentioned in one of the guides above.

    i haven’t really messed with the slider adjust at all since it starts stepping before and is very rarely grossly overthrowing. it’s just that last damn kernel slipping out
     
  12. ridgeway

    ridgeway Silver $$ Contributor

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    One improvement that needs to happen is a small 8-32 thumbscrew to hold the powder hopper to the thrower housing. It's not pretty when you tear down and lift up on hopper thinking the entire unit picks up! I will be doing this security mod myself, lol
     
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  13. LoanHarvey

    LoanHarvey Authorized Valdada Dealer Gold $$ Contributor

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    Yep, it auto throws!!
     
  14. johnnyi

    johnnyi Gold $$ Contributor

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    Nice write up!! But i'm disappointed with all of that fancy camera equipment you have an not a single picture!?? C'mon man.... Stop Slacking!! Ha.. See you this weekend.
     
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  15. Turbulent Turtle

    Turbulent Turtle F-TR competitor

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    Hmm, you skipped over post #7?

    http://img.gg/ncNYPuG

    Yep, see you this weekend.
     
  16. johnnyi

    johnnyi Gold $$ Contributor

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    I like embedded photos!
     
  17. Turbulent Turtle

    Turbulent Turtle F-TR competitor

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    You like photos in bed?

    I like NikonImageSpace; it affords me great control over my pictures.

    20190726_202450.jpg

    Happy now?
     
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  18. johnnyi

    johnnyi Gold $$ Contributor

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    awwwww sooooo pretty! Good job Denys!
     
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  19. Turbulent Turtle

    Turbulent Turtle F-TR competitor

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    Since that picture, I have upgraded the cover to an Area 419 plexiglass cover. I am NOT putting lights in it. I am considering fuzzy dice and an air freshener.
     
  20. ridgeway

    ridgeway Silver $$ Contributor

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    Is that cover worth the $$$?
     

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