First attempt with 90gn Berger Bullet

Discussion in 'Small Stuff--22s, 20s, and 17s' started by 7Fingers, May 18, 2017.

  1. 7Fingers


    Apr 28, 2012
    Wanting to build a 223 rifle to utilize the 90gn Berger bullet at our local 1000yd steel plate matches I spent a lot of time researching what worked and what didn't work in regards to this bullet. Based entirely on input from fellow shooters and the articles found in various forums I started my build. I have always been a fan of the Savage Target Action so that's what I based my build on. After picking up a dual port target action at our local shop next on the list was a barrel and chassis. The chassis was supplied by Accurate Rifle Systems in Mount Vernon Ohio and the barrel is a 28" SS select match 1-7 twist Shilen. For glass and mounts I went with my favorite, a Night Force Competition 15-55x52 with DDR2 reticle in Burris Signature Series rings then I put my favorite Henry Remple bipod on the front, build complete. Every article I read stated that a .169 free bore was essential using the long 90gn pill, so in order to achieve this I purchased a PTG throating reamer and lengthened the free bore to the recommended .169. Once the throating was completed the next thing to do was to come up with a load that could obtain roughly 2850fps which is the velocity recommendation made in many of the articles I read. I only fired a total of 6 rounds across my chronograph before reaching the recommended 2850fps loading the 90 grainers .012 into the lands with Lapua brass, Varget powder and igniting it with Federal Primers. Now it's off to the range to see if it is possible to build a rifle based completely on the results of others. I took 9 shots to zero my new rifle which made for a total of 15 shots down the tube then with no load development other than velocity I fired my first five shot group with it. The results were amazing, this is a picture of the rifle and its first five shot group. Looking forward to trying this out in it's first match this month.
    IMG_1150.JPG IMG_1210.JPG
    Last edited: May 18, 2017
  2. CharlieNC

    CharlieNC Silver $$ Contributor

    Aug 18, 2011
    Gratifying when it works out as planned!
  3. manitou210


    Feb 18, 2006
    At 2850 fps you must be 24.5+ gr varget you will be chucking those Lapua brass in 2 or 3 shots LOOSE PRIMERS.
    7Fingers likes this.
  4. skiutah02


    Feb 2, 2014
    Have fun! Drew
  5. JLT

    JLT Gold $$ Contributor

    Feb 21, 2014
    Nice shooting, man. It ain't all rifle . . .

    Nice rifle, too!
    7Fingers likes this.
  6. BULLET 05

    BULLET 05

    Sep 2, 2014
    Dad Burn it!!! That is AWESOME!!!
    7Fingers likes this.
  7. Ned Ludd

    Ned Ludd Silver $$ Contributor

    May 28, 2012
    The 2850 fps number you've seen thrown about quite a bit is most likely for a 30" barreled rifle with H4895, rather than Varget. Chances are good you are running quite a bit higher pressure than necessary out of your 28" barrel. As mentioned, brass life will certainly suffer. Doesn't look like it's hurting anything in the precision department, though! ;)
    MrMajestic and 7Fingers like this.
  8. XTR


    May 15, 2011
    My 28" Lilja puts them out at ~2810 over 24.5gr of Varget. Varget lots do vary.
    USMCDOC and 7Fingers like this.
  9. 7Fingers


    Apr 28, 2012
    How is your brass holding up at 24.5, the 24.8 that I'm using is definitely hard on primer pockets. Manitou was dead on with his observation, how critical is the velocity with the 90vld. This thing loves 2850.
  10. 7Fingers


    Apr 28, 2012
    Has anyone tried CFE-223 with the 90vld? According to quick load it should work and would be more pressure friendly. I'm just not very familiar with this powder.
  11. Laurie


    Oct 27, 2009
    I gave CFE223 a go in both 308 and 223 last summer. In 223, that was with both the 90gn VLD and 77gn SMK, the latter making a huge jump. The rifle has a 7-inch twist 29-inch True-Flite with the PT&G 0.169" FB ISSF chamber, and a Savage PTA action where borderline pressures cause excessive primer extrusion / risk of blanking so is a good pressure gauging tool. Brass was Lapua and primers CCI-450, the 90 VLD seated ~0.015 'in', the 77s jumped a lot.

    First trials ran from 24.0 to 25.8gn with the 90 and groups were nothing special, best at just under the half inch (at 100 yards). MVs rose from 2,612 to 2,830 fps with a big hike between 25 and 25.5gn. All case / primer signs suggested loads could go higher, so five batches were loaded up 25.9 - 26.3gn in 0.1gn steps and that took MVs up to 2,900 fps where they plateaued with nothing for the last pair of steps. Again groups weren't great, one at 0.45" in good testing conditions, the others from 0.65 to 1.2".

    I've found in this rifle that the 77gn SMK will shoot tiny groups provided the MV is high enough, so for fun tried it with CFE alongside the 90gn VLD. 24.0-26.0 CFE in half-grain steps saw MVs run from 2,726 to 2,911 fps and (4-round) groups reduced from the half-inch mark to 0.3" with the top load. Pressures were fine and loads could almost certainly go a lot higher. (I've had the 77 up to nearly 3,100 fps with Swiss RS52 high-energy powder, the nearest US equivalent being Alliant Re16, equivalent but not the same thing, and five-shot groups to 0.2" or even slightly smaller at these velocities.)

    Note that ambient temperatures were low by continental US standards, 15-deg C on the first outing maybe 20-deg (69/70F) on the second.

    In 308, I blew more than a few primers in large primer brass and got disastrous results in 'Palma' small primer cases (lots of hangfires and a couple of complete misfires) with two different bullet weights.

    My conclusion is that CFE could be a very useful powder in some cartridges, but that it shows the usual ball powder characteristics - a relatively small usable load / pressure band with big pressure / velocity spreads below its working pressure levels, a happy band, followed by a sudden pressure spike as charges rise above that even by very small increments. The 308 experience suggests it may be primer sensitive too as it is obviously considerably harder to ignite reliably than extruded grades. (And maybe some other ball powders too - I had no problems with Hodgdon H414 also from the General Dynamics St. Marks facility in lower temperatures in 308 / Palma in early 'Palma' brass tests some years back.)

    Barrel cleaning was as promised quick and easy. You get a couple of really dirty patches out initially, but it's virtually clean afterwards. No copper fouling seen.
  12. 7Fingers


    Apr 28, 2012
    Thanks Laurie, I appreciate you replying, are you currently shooting any 90 VLDs and if you are what load seems to work best for you.
  13. Laurie


    Oct 27, 2009
    The Savage used in the CFE tests has just been sold and my original long-throat 223 (also savage PTA) in an over-heavy (for FTR) McRees stock is in the process of being rebarrelled with a 30-inch Benchmark 7-twist which is a full heavy F-Class profile / weight and will have a barrel tuner on too. That is, a short to mid-range F-Open 223 rifle. (Don't ask!!)

    The one I did the tests in much preferred the 90gn Berger BT LR to the VLD. Not terrible with VLDs, but struggling to consistently give the sub 0.3-MOA groups I was looking for. (It did this very happily with the BT, though, and I ended up serarching out and buying what must have been the last few hundred 90gn BTs still around in the UK.)

    The powders I used in it were Nitrochemie Reload Swiss RS52 and for lower MVs / short-range Viht N150. RS52 is from the same family as Alliant Re17 (which we get as RS60 here) - high-energy and with the patented 'IE' advanced deterrent infusion technology, but faster burning than Re17/RS60 in the Re15 bracket, so will generally outperform H. VarGet by 25-50 fps in 223 and 308 without going mad on pressures.

    Before doing anything further with 223 that involved spending money, I had a couple of years testing RS52 on and off to see if it really offers any benefits - which I'm convinced it does especially as VarGet supply is so unreliable nowadays here that I won't put any trust in using it anymore. (Same for H4350 and H4831sc sadly.)

    So, when the new barrel is done, it'll be a case of trying both models, the 80.5gn Berger BT Fullbore and the 90gn JLK VLD primarily with RS52, and some N150 lower pressure examples with the BT to see what works.
    RDavies, USMCDOC, BP1 and 1 other person like this.
  14. Archis

    Archis Silver $$ Contributor

    Apr 1, 2016
    Interesting to see that the "proven" load works across so many rifles. I did something similar and once I worked my way up in charge weight to 24.5gn of Varget, loaded .015" into the lands everything just fell into place.


    I think I may have gotten lucky with this particular rifle setup because by all accounts it probably shouldn't be shooting this good. Rifle is a Savage 10 Action, 25" bull profile Green Mountain 1:7 barrel, Wylde Chamber, Bobby Hart LRT stock and Athlon Argos 8-32 BTR scope.

    I've yet to confirm if this was a fluke or is a sign of things to come. I've only got 80 or so rounds down the barrel at this point. I'm under no illusion that a 20rd group will stay this tight but seeing as this combination was such a dramatic improvement over all the others, I'm keeping my fingers crossed.
    7Fingers likes this.
  15. 7Fingers


    Apr 28, 2012
    Here are the results for the May 1000yd match. I took 4th with my new .223 rifle and 6th with my .223 pistol, very happy with the maiden voyage of my new rifle.

    Rayner’s Long Range Match
    May 25, 27 & 28, 2017

    1. (T)David Grau O (6.5x47) 520
    (S)Chris Michael O (6xclite) 520
    3. (S)Tom Wilson O (6.5x06) 510
    4. (T)Randy Wise O (223R) 500
    5. (S)Craig Wickham O (6.5x47) 480
    6. (T)Gary Conner O (6.5x47) 475
    (S)Randy Wise H (223R) 475
    8. (S)Gary Conner O (6.5x47) 470
    9. (S)Tom Rayner O (6.5x47L) 450
    (S)Craig Wickham O (6.5x47#2) 450
    11. (S)Elizabeth Stottsberry* O (6.5crdm) 445
    12. (S)Travis Hamilton O (6.5x47) 435
    13. (*) Zachary Piggott O (6.5x47L) 425
    (T)Dave Poske O (6.5x47) 425
    15. (S)Mark Conner O (6.5x47) 420
    (S)Andy Turner O (6.5x47) 420
    17. (*)Brian Livingston O (6.5crdm) 410
    18. (S)Waylon Sturgeon O (6.5crdm) 400
    19. (S)Don Holbrook Jr. O (6.5x47L) 395
    20. (T)Derrek Morehead O (260) 395
    (S)Colton See O (6mmslr) 395
    22. (S)Jim Bragg O (6.5intl) 390
    23. (T)Graham Alexander O (6.5x284) 385
    (S)Bob Fellows O (6x47L) 385
    (T)Koryand Kaci Waite O (6x47L) 385
    26. (T)Jerry Goldfuss O (243W) 380
    (S)Steve Montgomery O (300trex) 380
    (S)Johnny Tjioe O (6brx) 380
    29. (S)Jonathan Stottsberry O (6.5x47L) 375
    30. (S)Graham Alexander O (6.5x284) 370
    (T)Jim Bragg O (6.5ex) 370
    (*)Chris Michael O (6xcheavy) 370
    33. (*)Hollie Michael O (6xc#2) 365
    (S)Bob Smith O (6.5crdm) 365

    35. (S)Dave Poske O (6.5x47) 355
    (S)Bill Winland O (6.5crdm) 355
    37. (*)Tom Rayner O (6.5x47) 350
    (S)Bill Ruckman O (260) 350
    39. (S)Aaron Heffley O (6.5crdm) 340
    (T)Frank Holtzhauer O (284) 340
    (T)Bob Smith O (6.5crdm) 340
    (T)Joe Wesley O (6x284) 340
    (*)John Zimmerman O (338) 340
    44. (*)Mark Bruckelmyer O (6xc) 335
    (T)Nelson Gonzalez O (6.5x47L) 335
    (S)Margaret Jordan* O (6.5x47L) 335
    (S)Riley Stegner** O (243) 335
    48. (S)Mike Calafatis O (6.5x47) 330
    (T)Ruby Bailey Grau* O (6.5x47) 330
    (S)Travis Hamilton O (6br) 330
    (S)Champ Sherrick O (6xc) 330
    52. (T)Paul Bodey O (6.5crdm) 325
    (S)John Eddleblute O (280ai) 325
    (S)Chris Kirkpatrick O (6.5x47) 325
    55. (S)John Jordan O (6.5x47L) 320
    (T)Steve Pickard O (300wm) 320
    (T)Mike Shuba O (6.5x47) 320
    (S)Mike Shuba O (6.5x47) 320
    59. (*)Kevin Leezer O (6.5crdm) 315
    60. (T)Tom Rayner O (223r) 310
    61. (T)Daniel Dougherty O (6.5crdm) 305
    (*)Bob Fellows O (223) 305
    (*)Tom Myers O (6.5x284) 305
    (T)Dereck VonAllman O (6crdm) 305
    65. (T)Everett Holbrook O (260ai) 300
    (T)Logan Pickard** O (6.5crdm) 300
    (T)Mike Silka O (6br) 300
    68. (S)Nelson Gonzalez O (6.5x47L) 295
    (T)Travis Hamilton O (300wm) 295

    70. (*)Bob Ellwood O (30x06imp) 290
    (T)Rob Fairburn O (6.5x47L) 290
    (S)Dennis Kirkpatrick H (223) 290
    (S)Gary Morris O (6x47L) 290
    (T)John Skinner O (260) 290
    (T)Tom Wilson O (6.5x47) 290
    76. (S)Logan Pickard** O (6.5crdm) 285
    77. (T)Travis Hamilton O (6d) 280
    (*)Matt Leezer O (260r) 280
    79. (S)Todd Gesler H (6.5x47L) 275
    (S)Kevin Leezer O (6.5crdm) 275
    (*)Bob Smith O (6.5crdm) 275
    82. (*)Brian White O (6.5x47) 270
    83. (T)Zac Piggott O (6.5x47L) 265
    84. (*)Mike Cooper O (223) 260
    (T)Ed Gudgel O (6br) 260
    (S)Steve Pickard O (300wm) 260
    87. (S)Tom Groves O (6.5crdm) 250
    88. (S)Kathie Conner* O (6xc) 245
    (S)Justin Miller O (308) 245
    90. (*)Chad Heimberger O (243) 235
    (T)Curt Webster O (6.5crdm) 235
    (T)Sky Wilson O (6.5crdm) 235
    93. (S)Matt Leezer O (260r) 225
    (T)Kenny Young O (63.5crdm) 225
    95. (*)Todd Oehlman O (6.5crdm) 220
    96. (S)Chris Ranney O (6.5crdm) 215
    97. (*)Chris Hrink O (6.5crdm) 195
    (T)Mike Penso O (308) 195
    99. (*)Bob Brown O (260) 190
    (S)Aaron Sapp O (308) 190
    101. (S)Gary Holmes O (6.5usp) 185
    (*)Matt Melchiorre O (6.5crdm) 185
    (T)Tyler Riley O (6crdm) 185DNF
    104. (T) Randall Carey O (6.5crdm) 180
    105. (*)Alvin Taylor H (6x47L) 175
    106. (*)Rick Muse O (6.5crdm) 160

    107. (T)Travis LeMasters O (6.5x284) 150DNF
    (T)Bill Lutton O (6.5) 150DNF
    109. (T)Mark Bruckelmyer O (223) 140DNF
    (S)Eric Holbrook O (22x250) 140
    111. (T)Bob Ellwood O (6xc) 125DNF
    (T)Jon Riley O (6.5crdm) 125DNF
    113. (T)Adam Bentley O (6.5x47L) 115DNF
    114. (T)Bob Brown O (65.06ai) 65DNF
    115. (S)Jim Laughton M (308) 50
    116. (S)Cass Springer M (6.5x55s) 20
    (S)David Whetherholt O (223) 20

    (O) Optics's (H) Handgun (M) Metallic Sights
    (T) Thursday (S) Saturday (*) Sunday *Lady ** Junior

    Total Possible Points 810
    boltfluter and r bose like this.
  16. 7Fingers


    Apr 28, 2012
    Shot my second match using the 90s and could not have been happier with the outcome. I now hold the course record for .223 at 545 which is just 10 points below the overall course record held with a 6.5x47 Lapua.


    AUG. 24, 26, & 27, 2017

    1. (*)Randy Wise O (223) 545

    2. (T) Zachary Piggottt O (6.5x47) 535

    3. (S)Hollie Michael O (6xc#2) 475

    (*)Jeff Raymond O (6.5saum) 475

    5. (S) Travis Lemasters O (6.5-284) 470

    6. (S)Chris Michael O (6xcH) 460

    (S)Doug Staats O (6.5crdm) 460

    8. (S)Jeff Raymond O (6x47) 455

    9. (*)Chris Michael O (6xcL) 450

    (*)Zac Piggott O (6.5x47L) 450

    11. (S)Tom Rayner O (6.5x47L) 430

    12. (S)Craig Wickham O (6.5x47) 425

    13. (S)Keith Baker O (6x47) 420

    14. (*)Gary Conner O (6.5x47) 415

    (*)Dave Poske O (6.5saum) 415

    16. (*)Bob Fellows O (6x47L) 405

    (S)Matt Leezerr O (260R) 405

    18. (S)Bob Fellows O (6x47L) 400

    (*)Matt Leezer O (260R) 400

    (*)Steve Montgomery O (6.5x47L) 400

    (T)Tom Rayner O (6.5x47L) 400

    22. (S)Chad Heimberger O (6.5crdm) 390

    (S)Joe Turkal O (260R) 390

    (T)Craig Wickham O (6.5x47) 390

    25. (S)Daniel Redman O (6BRX) 385

    26. (*)John Jordan O (6.5x47) 380

    27. (T)Jan Crawmer O (6.5c) 375

    28. (T)Jim Bragg O (6INT) 370

    (T)Tom Wilson O (6.5crdm) 370

    (S)Frank Zane O (6.5crdm) 370

    31. (S)Nathan Livingston O (6.5krdm) 360

    (*)Hollie Michael O (6xc#3) 360

    33. (*)Jim Bragg O (6.5Intl) 355

    (*)Harry Duell O (243) 355

    (T)Andrew Wilush O (6xc) 355

    36. (*)William Bobst O (6.5crdm) 350

    (S)Guy Furman O (6.5) 350

    (*)Tom Myers O (6.5x284) 350

    39. (*)Jeff Raymond O (6x47) 345

    40. (*)James Cooke O (6xc) 340

    (S)Terry Duvall O (6.5crdm) 340

    (S)Jeff Raymond O (6.5saum) 340

    (T)Stan Watson O (6.5crdm) 340

    (T)Frank Zane O (6.5crdm) 340

    (S)John Zimmerman O (338LM) 340

    46. (*)Paul Bodey O (6.5crdm) 335

    (T)Robert Brown O (6.5-06AI) 335

    (*)Margaret Jordan* O (6.5x47) 335

    (S)Dennis Kirkpatrick O (223) 335

    50. (*)Kevin Leezer O (6.5crdm) 330

    51. (*)Kathy Conner* O (6.5x47) 325

    (T)Jerry Goldfuss O (243w) 325

    (T)Randy Wise H (223) 325

    54. (S)Ed Koegler O (6.5crdm) 320

    (S)Keven Leezer O (6.5crdm) 320

    (*)Jon Riley O (6.5crdm) 320

    57. (*)Brice Rayner** O (6.5x47L) 315

    58. (S)Dan Auman O (6.5crdm) 310

    (T)Paul Bodey O (6.5crdm) 310

    (S)Ralph Hoyt O (300W) 310

    (*)Tom Rayner O (223) 310

    62. (S)Barry Blackstein O (6x47) 305

    (S)Robert Brown O (6.5-06AI) 305

    (S)Rick Geraci O (6.5x47L#1) 305

    (*)Bill Winland O (6.5crdm) 305

    66. (*)Randall Carey O (6.5crdm) 300

    (*)Ashley Daugherty* O (6.5crdm) 300

    (S)Joe DeShon O (223) 300

    (S)Chris Kirkpatrick O (6.5x47) 300

    (T)Brian Livingston O (6.5crdm) 300

    (*)Justin Miller O (308) 300

    (*)Bill Ruckman O (260) 300

    (*)Kevin Woodgeard O (6.5crdm) 300

    74. (S)Mark Bruckelmyer O (6xc) 295

    (S)Josh Hoyt O (243w) 295

    (T)Bill Lemmon O (6.5crdm) 295

    77. (S)Bob Breeden O (300wm) 290

    (*)Dan Daugherty O (6.5crdm) 290

    (*)Todd Gesler H (6.5x47L) 290

    (T)Dan Jennings O (6.5crdm) 290

    (*)Wayne Powell O (6.5x47) 290

    82. (S)Rachael Campbell* O (6BRX) 285

    (T)Jason Finck O (6.5x47) 285

    (S)Gary Morris O (6x47L) 285

    (T)Waylon Sturgeon O (6.5crdm) 285

    86. (T)Bob Ellwood O (6.5x06IMP) 280

    (T)Ruby Grau* O (6.5x47) 280

    (S)Bob Merillat O (6mmcrdm) 280

    (*)Steve Prickard O (6.5crdm) 280

    (T)Dan Sanders O (6.5crdm) 280

    (S)Mark Tweedy O (243) 280

    92. (S)Riley Stegner** O (243) 275

    93. (S)J Fox O (6.5crdm) 270

    (T)Dave Poske O (6.5saum) 270

    (S)Jesse Rayner O (243) 270

    (S)George West O (6.5crdm) 270

    97. (S)Will Baker** O (6x47) 265

    (*)John Eddleblute O (280AI) 265

    (*)Chris Ranney O (6.5crdm) 265

    (S)Eric Rolenz O (6mmxc) 265

    101. (*)Mark Conner O (6.5x47) 260

    (S)Laren Farkas* O (6BRX) 260

    (S)David Gray O (6.5crdm) 260

    104. (*)Steve Billak O (260) 255

    (*)Shawn Corbett O (308) 255

    (S)Bob Ellwood O (6xc) 255

    (*)Bill Ruckman O (6.5crdm) 255

    108. (S)Al Hill O (6.5x47) 250

    (S)Stephen Wilush O (300wm) 250

    110. (S)Sal Bertuna O (6.5crdm) 245

    (T)Rob Fairburn O (6.5crdm) 245

    (T)Lawrence Leaman O (25WEL) 245

    (S)Kevin Wilush O (308) 245

    113. (*)Logan Pickard** O (6.5crdm) 235

    114. (S)John Cebarbery O (338L) 230

    (T)Kevin Wilush O (308) 230

    116. (*)Chris Carrish O (6.5crdm) 225

    (S)Todd Oehlman O (6.5crdm) 225

    (T)Allison Zane*** O (6.5crdm) 225

    119. (S)Patrick Campbell O (308) 210

    (T)David Grau O (6.5x47) 210

    (*)Don Holbrook Jr. O (6.5x47L) 210

    (S)Dan Stover O (6.5crdm) 210

    123. (T)Gary Morris O (6x47L) 200

    (S)Craig Nolty O (7mmCrdm) 200

    125. (S)Adam Bentley O (223x47+) 195

    (S)Mike Cooper O (223) 195

    127. (S)Andrew Wilush O (6xc) 170

    128. (S)Tom Groves O (6.5crdm) 150

    129. (T)Kenny Young O (6.5crdm) 145

    130. (*)Duan Cartis O (308) 130

    131. (*)Matt Pavlik O (22-250) 125

    132. (S)Daniel Redman M (30-06MI) 55

    (T) Thursday (*) Saturday (S) Sunday * Lady ** Junior
  17. cmillard


    Jan 15, 2009
    laurie, and 7fingers, have you given imr 4320 a try in the .223/90 grain combo? it is listed as next in line (depending on which burn rate chart you look at), and the kernels are smaller than varget. I use it in my 6br after varget was hard to come by. also, I recently switched powders in my long range ar-15. I was using aa2520 with berger 77, but switched to sierra 77 tmk and alliant 2000mr. I picked the most accurate load (2nd or 3rd from top charge) and the top powder charge was just showing signs of pressure. I am going to run the loads across the screens tomorrow to check velocity
  18. 7Fingers


    Apr 28, 2012
    I have plenty Varget, and will continue to use it until I run out. If that happens I will be sure to try that.
  19. XTR


    May 15, 2011
    2000MR is double based, it can and will give you pressure issues on hot days. I have had it happen to me, with my 308.

    I know another shooter who spent a whole lot or time shooting the 223 using it. Some days it was a laser, others it was a shotgun.

    Look into my thread on here about trying to get the 90s to shoot with 2000MR. Fine for Service rifle, but if you are shooting F-TR there are better choices.
    7Fingers likes this.


    Sep 2, 2016
    2KMR, should be load worked up when the temps are up.. at 80 degrees or more.. and it doesn't like a tight chamber.. When i used it, it was a Wylde Chamber with the bullet 10 in.. If you are running a tight chamber with lil movement of the case.. and you don't wait till the temps are right.. yeah.. you can run into an issue with the powder.. i have seen that myself.. But as well you know Wade, i have also gotten that powder to work very well too.
    7Fingers likes this.

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