Your thoughts on my OCW test?

[Keith Glasscock]

No more of a silly high master than the rest of us.

I've been to this rodeo before, and I'm always trying to learn something new. I was trying to do my load development sort-of backward today. Sadly, the driver did not show up for some groups, so the results were murky.

After selecting a seating depth, I ran charges, surprise! the charge I started with was best... Hmmm. Could one influence the other...???

For the OP, I never, I mean NEVER, keep my initial "optimal" load. In the end, I always learn something new and am able to capitalize on it. All of the formulaic testing in the world will not give you the "best" load for any given day and condition. The actual purpose of the testing has to be set before beginning. In my case, I have a simple standard - less than 1" of vertical at 300 yards and no notable horizontal stringing. Sadly, I did not repeatedly acheive that today. I kept having flyers that I attribute to my shooting (always the same direction and angle)

Looking at your data, you have some problems to overcome depending on the purpose of the rifle. If you are looking for adequate accuracy for steel matches and tactical stuff, you might be OK with the two loads you pointed out. Otherwise, there might be some work to do.

Are we talking about a custom barrel, or factory?

 

[jcampbellsmith]

....... Walking back and forth to a 300 yard target 12 times or so to mark your shots is pretty time consuming.

Try a target like this. I fire five shots moving from left to right, stop, go forward and mark up the target. Then repeat the process.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/12296998/Ladder%20test/Ladder%20test%201.JPG

When I am done, I use Excel to graph the elevations of each shot against powder weight.

Regards

JCS

 

[Raythemanroe]

I have relied on ladder testing at 300y for most of my load work up. I may not be as experienced as most of you and prefer to do my testing on the best of days with the least amount of wind. OCW testing caught my eye after following Erik's thread on 100y load testing, mainly because it would give me more of a window for testing and less down time.. I have been thinking of trying 100y OCW to weed it down and then do fine tuning at 300 like a ladder test or would that be a waste of time?

 

[SWThomas]

No more of a silly high master than the rest of us.

I've been to this rodeo before, and I'm always trying to learn something new. I was trying to do my load development sort-of backward today. Sadly, the driver did not show up for some groups, so the results were murky.

After selecting a seating depth, I ran charges, surprise! the charge I started with was best... Hmmm. Could one influence the other...???

For the OP, I never, I mean NEVER, keep my initial "optimal" load. In the end, I always learn something new and am able to capitalize on it. All of the formulaic testing in the world will not give you the "best" load for any given day and condition. The actual purpose of the testing has to be set before beginning. In my case, I have a simple standard - less than 1" of vertical at 300 yards and no notable horizontal stringing. Sadly, I did not repeatedly acheive that today. I kept having flyers that I attribute to my shooting (always the same direction and angle)

Looking at your data, you have some problems to overcome depending on the purpose of the rifle. If you are looking for adequate accuracy for steel matches and tactical stuff, you might be OK with the two loads you pointed out. Otherwise, there might be some work to do.

Are we talking about a custom barrel, or factory?

Thanks for the input. It's a Bartlein barrel. 11.25 twist.

 

[SWThomas]

Thanks for all the input fellas. I'll keep working on my shooting technique. Once I can shoot consistent groups with one load I'll start playing around. I'm pretty sure the width of these groups is my fault.

 

[M14AMU]

My ladder test works like onto this:

I load 22 rounds and go lay down at the 1000 yard line and if I clean the Palma target and my shots are 'on call'......my ladder is good! Been doing this now for 50 years and it works!!

 

[Hoier]

I have relied on ladder testing at 300y for most of my load work up. I may not be as experienced as most of you and prefer to do my testing on the best of days with the least amount of wind. OCW testing caught my eye after following Erik's thread on 100y load testing, mainly because it would give me more of a window for testing and less down time.. I have been thinking of trying 100y OCW to weed it down and then do fine tuning at 300 like a ladder test or would that be a waste of time?

I wouldn't do that, it would be like doing the same thing twice.

I shoot a 300yd ladder(that's all the farther I can shoot close to home). Then I pick my charge and change seating by .003 and shoot groups. Then after I find my best I like to shoot 3-5 groups and see if I have an acceptable load.

 

[rminut]

My ladder test works like onto this:

I load 22 rounds and go lay down at the 1000 yard line and if I clean the Palma target and my shots are 'on call'......my ladder is good! Been doing this now for 50 years and it works!!

AMEN and two hail mary's. my only caveat is, when I wasn't a HM I asked the HM's around me what they were using, most were using the same or very similar loads/bullets. When I strayed from that stuff my scores suffered, why? cause i'm spending time at reloading bench instead of at the range! ain't rocket science but every newbie has to learn at their own pace.

 

[stool]

on a two moa target..that is crap shooting....
i do not think the shooter has posted his desired accuracy or range...
and if you read the post he has an EIGHTEEN INCH BBL..

ALL well and good for you handicapped belly shooters....but some of us like accuracy.....

you guys keep living in your historical dream world

My ladder test works like onto this:

I load 22 rounds and go lay down at the 1000 yard line and if I clean the Palma target and my shots are 'on call'......my ladder is good! Been doing this now for 50 years and it works!!

AMEN and two hail mary's. my only caveat is, when I wasn't a HM I asked the HM's around me what they were using, most were using the same or very similar loads/bullets. When I strayed from that stuff my scores suffered, why? cause i'm spending time at reloading bench instead of at the range! ain't rocket science but every newbie has to learn at their own pace.

 

[stool]

has any one look at the velocity he is getting and the load ??

i'm only using quickload and data i have from MY IMR4064...

i am way under those velocities, and anything i do to move them up goes over pressure...

kt...what is the volume of your cases ??

 

[6BRinNZ]

Thanks for all the input fellas. I'll keep working on my shooting technique. Once I can shoot consistent groups with one load I'll start playing around. I'm pretty sure the width of these groups is my fault.

This is the thing - most load development is focusing on vertical. You will be working on your technique forever - its like reading the wind there is always something to improve on.

You don't have to be an expert shot to do load development (if so 99% of shooters are in trouble), you just need to follow a process and know what to look for and most importantly why. Load development analysis is purely using theoretical knowledge (understand the system you have chosen) once the practicality of the shooting has been done.

Choose a process and follow it, mixing and matching processes is a good way to tie yourself up in knots.

Choosing a "known good load" is a bit like getting a factory rifle to start; could be great (might not be) but it will get you under way, before too long you will be back at the loading bench (or following the analogy - looking at a custom rifle).

Shoot during the day and load at night.

Good luck.

 

[rminut]

on a two moa target..that is crap shooting....
i do not think the shooter has posted his desired accuracy or range...
and if you read the post he has an EIGHTEEN INCH BBL..

ALL well and good for you handicapped belly shooters....but some of us like accuracy.....

you guys keep living in your historical dream world

in another post of his he stated he doesn't compete or shoot past 300. you're exactly right he didn't state his desired accuracy goal, or even call any of his shots during his OCW a little off. I guess all his shots are perfect and he just wants us to tell him which load is best. I thought ocw's were best done at 300 or farther? he is running the same posts over at snipershide so I am kind of lost why he would post over here too. just seems like two very different groups.

stool, I didn't know I was talking with someone who evidently found palma shooting easy and beat the world so you have moved on. my apologies for just shooting matches and not shooting ocw's.

 

[smoooth]

Without regard to the type of test, distance, moon phase, wind, type of dies, brand of scale, fit of jeans, etc., etc., etc.,....

Did anyone happen to look at the target, read his velocities, and see that the last target (best group) also had the least velocity difference?

Obviously, there are an infinite number of factors at work here, but in my simple mind, the best group shot with the least velocity spread pretty much sums it up.

 

[stool]

DID YOU READ MY POST SAYING IT appeared THE PRESSURES OF THE SECOND TO LAST STRING WERE over pressure....???

Without regard to the type of test, distance, moon phase, wind, type of dies, brand of scale, fit of jeans, etc., etc., etc.,....

Did anyone happen to look at the target, read his velocities, and see that the last target (best group) also had the least velocity difference?

Obviously, there are an infinite number of factors at work here, but in my simple mind, the best group shot with the least velocity spread pretty much sums it up.

 

[stool]

i'm glad someone finally recognized that fact.........lol

but what can you expect when you claim a ladder test with only one load.....



[/quote]
.

stool, I didn't know I was talking with someone who evidently found palma shooting easy and beat the world so you have moved on. my apologies for just shooting matches and not shooting ocw's.
[/quote]

 

[SWThomas]

has any one look at the velocity he is getting and the load ??

i'm only using quickload and data i have from MY IMR4064...

i am way under those velocities, and anything i do to move them up goes over pressure...

kt...what is the volume of your cases ??

I don't know what to tell you. These were all fired over a CE Pro Chrono and there were no signs of over pressure. No flattened primers, no markings from the ejector, no flowing of the primer cup, etc... I've fired the same combo with 46.0g of 4064 without any pressure signs. Didn't chrono that though. The last load I shot was 45.6, which is the Hodgdon published max. The velocity they list with that load is almost identical to my velocities. I'm not seeing what the issue is.

Just FYI, my accuracy goal with this rifle is sub-MOA. I know the rifle will do it, as it has shown on my target, it's just up to me with my loads and my shooting.

 

[SWThomas]

on a two moa target..that is crap shooting....
i do not think the shooter has posted his desired accuracy or range...
and if you read the post he has an EIGHTEEN INCH BBL..

ALL well and good for you handicapped belly shooters....but some of us like accuracy.....

you guys keep living in your historical dream world

in another post of his he stated he doesn't compete or shoot past 300. you're exactly right he didn't state his desired accuracy goal, or even call any of his shots during his OCW a little off. I guess all his shots are perfect and he just wants us to tell him which load is best. I thought ocw's were best done at 300 or farther? he is running the same posts over at snipershide so I am kind of lost why he would post over here too. just seems like two very different groups.

stool, I didn't know I was talking with someone who evidently found palma shooting easy and beat the world so you have moved on. my apologies for just shooting matches and not shooting ocw's.

You guys have been great in offering advice and I appreciate it, but you're not the end-all-be-all. I posted this over at The Hide so I could get as many opinions as possible. Is there something wrong with posting this on different forums? Or getting multiple opinions?

 

[stool]

your load lists IMR 6064 and then you quote the hodgon book,,,,imr and h ARE NOT THE SAME.....

i 'm impressed with those numbers,,,esp if no pressure issues.

 

[johara1]

With out wind flags you are just wearing out a good barrel with no return. You have around .7" of wind and with no way to shoot under same condition. It makes no sense at all, The better groups maybe under a close condition and the others maybe anything. Best use wind flags and cover all the bases……….. jim

 

[Jay Christopherson]

You guys have been great in offering advice and I appreciate it, but you're not the end-all-be-all. I posted this over at The Hide so I could get as many opinions as possible. Is there something wrong with posting this on different forums? Or getting multiple opinions?

Nope. Not a bit.