Your pointy bullets and their flight
- Thread starter jerrysharrett
- Start date
raythemanroe said:
What I am leading to is, first draw a line EXACTLY through the center of mass of the bullet. Now, is the magic, exhaulted, pointy point EXACTLY on that imaginary line on all the bullets in that batch or are some slightly off that line? What effect will that out-of-concentricity mass have on that bullet when it is spinning at 270,000 rpm?
Raythemanroe
Bullet Whisperer
jerrysharrett said:
Probably the benefits tipped bullets have and why folks point.. Now I believe spinning them like Ohara stated could help sorting that out
Ray
jerrysharrett said:
Now i know where you are going…… I think you should call Randy on that one but for me and just a shooter i rely on the Juenke to tell me what is good. It will tell what you need to know about bad jackets and core separation and so on. I just paid 50 a 100 for some that are not even round…….. now they are for ff. bullets. A lot i can't say on here so we will leave it at that……. jim
Jerry:
I make this post with great respect as I know your reputation from your conventional BR shooting and your posts on BRC. Perhaps I can shed a little light on the subject.
I appreciate you visiting June, and she is a fine lady. I also appreciate you looking at Ferris' notes. That being said,
I paid more than the finest set of carbide bullet making dies for Ferris to develop me a meplat closing die in 2002. He worked on it for 22 days and nights. I did all the testing at 100, 200, 600 and 1000 yards. Ferris developed the diebut I developed the detailed process of milking everything out of the meplats. When Ferris was finshed with the die, he called me in tears. He said that he had done it. He had developed the perfect meplat closing die and that it was square and perp and it floated.
With that one die, and the fixtures that Ferris developed -- as well as some of my own fixtures -- have set long range records from 600 to 1000 yards in prone and from the bench. John Whidden has won all of his Championships with closed meplats. Jim Ohara -- who I believe is the finest 1000 yd BR shooter that walks -- has set all his records and aggs with closed meplats. The great majority of long range shooters use closed meplats to increase BC but mainly to have CONSISTENT BC.
The United States Palma Team, through the USAMU, sought my assistance is sorting and closing the meplats on 25,000 Sierra 2156 Palma bullets for the 2011 Nationals and the World Palma Championships. At the conclusion of my work, the testing was done at John Whidden's range at 1000 yards. John shot prone with sling and scope. I pulled all of the targets, and Emil Praslic, Coach of the USAMU, did all the data gathering and took pictures. By the end of the 3rd day, John was shooting 1.5" of vertical -- that is right -- 1.5" of vertical from the prone at 1000 yards with a 308 and Palma bullets -- nicely made into "pointy" little things.
Research the archives on BRC for Jason Baney's testing of 58 106 Clinch River bullets I closed for him. I told him nothing about them and asked nothing in return. I just asked him to test them. He did so in a round robin manner. The unmodified 106 CR bullets he had been shooting grouped 5+" at the PA range. The closed meplats grouped 2+" with far less vertical in the group. The BC was so much higher that the group of the modified bullets printed almost 18" higher. I knew they would because I had done the testing beforehand. Jason then wen on to win the World Open with his less than 16 lb 6BR beating all the big boys and the big guns. Pictures of the results were posted. In fact, Jason did a story on meplat closing on this board and made reference to the testing, but he never mentioned the Pindell die. Not a slight, just a fact. Look it up.
There is a very good writer that contributes to this site often -- and a very fine shooter and tester as well. He was having some problems with 6mm 115 and I offered to close the meplats for him to fix the problem. He politely let me know that he did not have time for experimenting. Now he shoots closed meplats on everything.
Again, looking in the archives on BRC, you will find a thread by a good friend and ballistic guru who was just a rocket science man at the time. He questioned the value of the closed meplats. Now he closed his meplats and contributed to the development of John Whidden's fixtures used in his fine dies.
Back in the day, I closed the meplats on 100 142 SMK for an F-Class Team member. The shot lights out for him. I offered to do the same for the entire team. Never heard another word.
I have broken two Sr. prone records with closed meplats. One was a short-lived 600 yard record with irons and a 6BR shooting 105 JLK with closed meplats -- like a dart -- no meplat left. I also broke Mid Tompkins 9 year old Sr record for irons at 1000 during the same match that the F-Class record was broken by Charles Ballard in 2008 at Camp Butner, NC. 105 degree temp. I almost died -- for real.
Jim Ohara is, in my mind, the best and most accomplished 1000 yard BR shooter that walks. He shoots a 16 pound gun against all takers and he shoots closed meplats. Ask Jim how many 3" class groups he has shot in 1000 yard competition -- you will be shocked. Also ask about the aggs and scores. Also shocking. All with closed meplats.
I have been worn out on this subject over the years in trying to prove the worth of closed meplats. I don't have to do that anymore because the majority of all long range competitors close their meplats. So, this is probably the only post I wll make on the subject. Been there and done that forever it seems.
As Jim Ohara has said, it is all about your total shooting package. Everything. The loading process alone is much more complex for shooters like Mr. Ohara who leaves NOTHING for chance.
I will leave your with this, respectfully. There is NOTHING you can do to your best long range load that will increase your BC and the CONSISTENCY of your BC in removing the vertical from your groups like properly closing your meplats. NOTHING. Just a fact. I have won bets for my pride, fine beverages, steak and seafood dinners and one rather fine table dance from the doubters. Never lost a bet on the meplat closing -- NEVER. I have posted to assist an already great shooter who is entering the new game of 600 and 1000 yard competition -- and for those who are new to the shooting game. Don't waste your time fighting the facts. Purchase a meplat closing die and have a good time. It is the best money you can spend on your long range game.
God bless,
Jim Hardy
I make this post with great respect as I know your reputation from your conventional BR shooting and your posts on BRC. Perhaps I can shed a little light on the subject.
I appreciate you visiting June, and she is a fine lady. I also appreciate you looking at Ferris' notes. That being said,
I paid more than the finest set of carbide bullet making dies for Ferris to develop me a meplat closing die in 2002. He worked on it for 22 days and nights. I did all the testing at 100, 200, 600 and 1000 yards. Ferris developed the diebut I developed the detailed process of milking everything out of the meplats. When Ferris was finshed with the die, he called me in tears. He said that he had done it. He had developed the perfect meplat closing die and that it was square and perp and it floated.
With that one die, and the fixtures that Ferris developed -- as well as some of my own fixtures -- have set long range records from 600 to 1000 yards in prone and from the bench. John Whidden has won all of his Championships with closed meplats. Jim Ohara -- who I believe is the finest 1000 yd BR shooter that walks -- has set all his records and aggs with closed meplats. The great majority of long range shooters use closed meplats to increase BC but mainly to have CONSISTENT BC.
The United States Palma Team, through the USAMU, sought my assistance is sorting and closing the meplats on 25,000 Sierra 2156 Palma bullets for the 2011 Nationals and the World Palma Championships. At the conclusion of my work, the testing was done at John Whidden's range at 1000 yards. John shot prone with sling and scope. I pulled all of the targets, and Emil Praslic, Coach of the USAMU, did all the data gathering and took pictures. By the end of the 3rd day, John was shooting 1.5" of vertical -- that is right -- 1.5" of vertical from the prone at 1000 yards with a 308 and Palma bullets -- nicely made into "pointy" little things.
Research the archives on BRC for Jason Baney's testing of 58 106 Clinch River bullets I closed for him. I told him nothing about them and asked nothing in return. I just asked him to test them. He did so in a round robin manner. The unmodified 106 CR bullets he had been shooting grouped 5+" at the PA range. The closed meplats grouped 2+" with far less vertical in the group. The BC was so much higher that the group of the modified bullets printed almost 18" higher. I knew they would because I had done the testing beforehand. Jason then wen on to win the World Open with his less than 16 lb 6BR beating all the big boys and the big guns. Pictures of the results were posted. In fact, Jason did a story on meplat closing on this board and made reference to the testing, but he never mentioned the Pindell die. Not a slight, just a fact. Look it up.
There is a very good writer that contributes to this site often -- and a very fine shooter and tester as well. He was having some problems with 6mm 115 and I offered to close the meplats for him to fix the problem. He politely let me know that he did not have time for experimenting. Now he shoots closed meplats on everything.
Again, looking in the archives on BRC, you will find a thread by a good friend and ballistic guru who was just a rocket science man at the time. He questioned the value of the closed meplats. Now he closed his meplats and contributed to the development of John Whidden's fixtures used in his fine dies.
Back in the day, I closed the meplats on 100 142 SMK for an F-Class Team member. The shot lights out for him. I offered to do the same for the entire team. Never heard another word.
I have broken two Sr. prone records with closed meplats. One was a short-lived 600 yard record with irons and a 6BR shooting 105 JLK with closed meplats -- like a dart -- no meplat left. I also broke Mid Tompkins 9 year old Sr record for irons at 1000 during the same match that the F-Class record was broken by Charles Ballard in 2008 at Camp Butner, NC. 105 degree temp. I almost died -- for real.
Jim Ohara is, in my mind, the best and most accomplished 1000 yard BR shooter that walks. He shoots a 16 pound gun against all takers and he shoots closed meplats. Ask Jim how many 3" class groups he has shot in 1000 yard competition -- you will be shocked. Also ask about the aggs and scores. Also shocking. All with closed meplats.
I have been worn out on this subject over the years in trying to prove the worth of closed meplats. I don't have to do that anymore because the majority of all long range competitors close their meplats. So, this is probably the only post I wll make on the subject. Been there and done that forever it seems.
As Jim Ohara has said, it is all about your total shooting package. Everything. The loading process alone is much more complex for shooters like Mr. Ohara who leaves NOTHING for chance.
I will leave your with this, respectfully. There is NOTHING you can do to your best long range load that will increase your BC and the CONSISTENCY of your BC in removing the vertical from your groups like properly closing your meplats. NOTHING. Just a fact. I have won bets for my pride, fine beverages, steak and seafood dinners and one rather fine table dance from the doubters. Never lost a bet on the meplat closing -- NEVER. I have posted to assist an already great shooter who is entering the new game of 600 and 1000 yard competition -- and for those who are new to the shooting game. Don't waste your time fighting the facts. Purchase a meplat closing die and have a good time. It is the best money you can spend on your long range game.
God bless,
Jim Hardy
Jim, thanks so much for your reply I'm sure it will help a lot of long range shooters about Ferris's "needle point" meplat closer, but see below.
A side story first. The last Super Shoot Ferris, June and their nephew Dr. Steve attended, while I was walking Ferris back to their car Joel Kendrick bought Ferris's last meplat pointer. Would I have bought it had I seen it first? Probably not. Joel did make me some pointy bullets from it, Bergers, Fowlers, Brunos, and one other I can't remember. I have never shot them but Joel has shot a lot of these Ferris tipped bullets at 1000 yards and one important comment he made is that these bullets have about 12 inches LESS drop at that distance than his same bullets untipped.
Back to the original.
what I am trying to get a bunch of you young brains to come up with is a bullet POINT that is EXACTLY on the axis of rotation as the rest of the bullet. I,E, a bullet that comes out of the barrel aseep!!
A side story first. The last Super Shoot Ferris, June and their nephew Dr. Steve attended, while I was walking Ferris back to their car Joel Kendrick bought Ferris's last meplat pointer. Would I have bought it had I seen it first? Probably not. Joel did make me some pointy bullets from it, Bergers, Fowlers, Brunos, and one other I can't remember. I have never shot them but Joel has shot a lot of these Ferris tipped bullets at 1000 yards and one important comment he made is that these bullets have about 12 inches LESS drop at that distance than his same bullets untipped.
Back to the original.
what I am trying to get a bunch of you young brains to come up with is a bullet POINT that is EXACTLY on the axis of rotation as the rest of the bullet. I,E, a bullet that comes out of the barrel aseep!!
dmoran said:
Nothing yet Donoan butI am still hoping someone will.
An intermediate step might involving some optical device, not unlike the Vern Junke thing that will spin an individual bullet while allowing the user to look directly into the point to see how much runout it has. This is not the solution, however, the solution would inolve a method/equipment to make the perfect bullet in the first place.
One train of consideration might be "spinning" the bullet nose. Many of you are aware of how aerial war bomb noses are generated by a process developed before WW II called spinning.
Currently our bullet points are swaged by a forming die called the pointup die. The weakness in this operation is that 1) the final shape of the bullet nose is at the mercy of how the jacket wall folds all around its perimeter and 2) the process of swaging leaves no guarantee of how consistent the entire nose profile is from bullet to bullet.
Why is #2 important? Ever measure your bullets noses for consistency by measuring from the point where they contact the leade to where the cone in your seating die contacts the bullet nose? This variation may not be as important if you are jumping the bullet as if your load combination happened to shoot best touching.
A pointup process that would allow the bullet to be spun to shape the nose curve as this curve is being formed might solve much of this problem???
.
Currently our bullet points are swaged by a forming die called the pointup die. The weakness in this operation is that 1) the final shape of the bullet nose is at the mercy of how the jacket wall folds all around its perimeter and 2) the process of swaging leaves no guarantee of how consistent the entire nose profile is from bullet to bullet.
Why is #2 important? Ever measure your bullets noses for consistency by measuring from the point where they contact the leade to where the cone in your seating die contacts the bullet nose? This variation may not be as important if you are jumping the bullet as if your load combination happened to shoot best touching.
A pointup process that would allow the bullet to be spun to shape the nose curve as this curve is being formed might solve much of this problem???
.
jerry, put the bullet on an optical comparator ….. and what will you see? put it on the Juenke and you get the rest of what you can't see. I do not shoot production bullets anymore because of lot to lot variation. You can find a good lot as i did with the 105 Berger Hybrid you will set records but the next lots you get may be only good for fire forming. I think it could happen with a custom bullet but less chance, and this makes them cheaper to shoot. The jacket crunch is going to ease up and better jackets will be on the market then so will better bullets. Trimming and pointing it where you get the consistency at long range and with Sierra tipping and pointing their bullets will be something worth looking at because they have the best jacket machine in the world, i guess we will see. I know some right now have great success with the 107. ……. jim
Raythemanroe
Bullet Whisperer
I know you don't hear Hornady a lot in match, but they are doing a good job closing their match hollow points..
Ray
Ray
tom said:
Tom, right on ……. i even study the holes as close as 15-20 yds. i'm looking for the bullets that are asleep………..and you are right on the money with the rest but i found that going shorter on the barrel length was better and now i just set back the best barrel i have to 26"to test……. I truly don't think you need all that barrel length, i hope i'm right that barrel shot nine 100's …… jim
[/quote]You can easily accomplish that with a microscope Jerry.
[/quote]
Permanently fastening a v-block vertically to a microscope platen and spinning the bullet by hand would be a start. Then the microscope lens would need grid lines to measure the amount of runout..........any of you QC or metrology guys have a setup like this?
[/quote]
Permanently fastening a v-block vertically to a microscope platen and spinning the bullet by hand would be a start. Then the microscope lens would need grid lines to measure the amount of runout..........any of you QC or metrology guys have a setup like this?
You can easily accomplish that with a microscope Jerry.
[/quote]
Permanently fastening a v-block vertically to a microscope platen and spinning the bullet by hand would be a start. Then the microscope lens would need grid lines to measure the amount of runout..........any of you QC or metrology guys have a setup like this?
[/quote
An optical comparator is a better choice…….. jim
[/quote]
Permanently fastening a v-block vertically to a microscope platen and spinning the bullet by hand would be a start. Then the microscope lens would need grid lines to measure the amount of runout..........any of you QC or metrology guys have a setup like this?
[/quote
An optical comparator is a better choice…….. jim
Raythemanroe
Bullet Whisperer
I am surprised I don't see more tipped bullets at matches
Ray
Ray
You can easily accomplish that with a microscope Jerry.
[/quote]
Permanently fastening a v-block vertically to a microscope platen and spinning the bullet by hand would be a start. Then the microscope lens would need grid lines to measure the amount of runout..........any of you QC or metrology guys have a setup like this?
[/quote]You can get crosshairs for microscopes. Unless you have a spare ten grand stashed somewhere, an optical comparator isn't much of an option ???
[/quote]
Permanently fastening a v-block vertically to a microscope platen and spinning the bullet by hand would be a start. Then the microscope lens would need grid lines to measure the amount of runout..........any of you QC or metrology guys have a setup like this?
[/quote]You can get crosshairs for microscopes. Unless you have a spare ten grand stashed somewhere, an optical comparator isn't much of an option ???
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