Your pointy bullets and their flight

[jerrysharrett]

Guys let me throw something out. First, I've only shot a limited amount of IBS 600. I've only shot a couple of IBS Nationals and my 600 LG has been resting all the 2014 year except to give some demos at a very nice 600 yard range we have here in East Tennessee.

I don't think you are ever going to get consistent accuracy over the 3000 fps mark with these super-pointy VLD type bullets currently being used. I just don't think it is possible to make bullets with enough consistency in concentricity relative to point runout to put the spin required for stability.

Granted, the easier to obtain high BC comes with the aerodynamic smoothing of the pointy guys and this does translate into shorter flight time which translates to less wind drift.....but that is all you gain with the pointy guys.

I'm simply throwing this thread out to see if anyone wants to elaborate or further expand on the idea of less pointy bullets. After my going through Ferris Pindells shop for his widow, June, after Ferris's passing, and going through his notes has led me to this thinking.

What say ye???

 

[Raythemanroe]

How wouldn't a pointed bullet shoot better? The shape doesn't determine inconsistency. Just an observation, but haven't a lot of LR records dropped lately to Hybrids and the like?




Ray

 

[johara1]

To answer your question, maybe you get one of Pindells pointers and answer your own question LOL. First you need to do a lot of work to the bullets and change your loading practice from the short range and get into weighing powder down to .01, seating force with in 2-3 lb., annealing, sorting bullets by bearing surface. Trimming and pointing and spin them on a Juenke. and the last one is start with a Dasher…….. and i would start with the Spencer or the now Vaper trail bullets…………. Jim O'Hara

 

[JRS]

The point is there for penetration in air Jerry. That is an enormous gain

 

[dkhunt14]

All you have to do is look at this years Nationals results. Almost all the top ten in Group and Score in Light and Heavy were shot with these pointy little bullets. That says something in my opinion. Matt

 

[johara1]

From the title I gathered you ask about pointing. But reading your post, are you asking about design?

Tom

What i think he is seeking is that the VLD bullets do shoot consistent, What i said that short range loading practice is too crude to tell if a bullet is consistent, and he needs to refine his loading and what it takes to be consistent. Aggs. with in the year show consistency. If 600 is the game i would talk to Rodney, Mike or Sam and i'm sure he will find his answer……… jim

 

[CatShooter]

I don't think you are ever going to get consistent accuracy over the 3000 fps mark with these super-pointy VLD type bullets currently being used. I just don't think it is possible to make bullets with enough consistency in concentricity relative to point runout to put the spin required for stability.


What say ye???

Making bullets with consistency is not difficult - nor is achieving stability. IT is simply a matter of skill in making dies and making bullets.

A problem with looooong bullets is spinning them fast, and having the centrifugal forces disrupt the structure - which is also a solvable problem.

Long pointy bullets are here to stay.

 

[michaelnel]

That reminds me, I need to reshape my ConeHead hat.

 

[357Mag]

JerryS -

Howdy !

I dunno how practical it might be, to try considering the pointy end of a VLD's contribution to its aerodynamics; w/o also considering the contribution being made by the VLD's associated boat tail ?

There has been testing that showed a rebated boat tail bullet can shoot more accurately... than one
w/ with a boat tail that is not rebated ( same cal, same bullet wt )

That aside, I can see where a more-swoopy bullet could extend the range of deliverable energy for a LR varmint hunter; even if only a little bit. Berger's 6mm 88 LD and JLK's former #12 .224 FB put
the aero impovements in the pointy end.

I once talked to Jimmy Knox about the merits of using a swoopy .224cal 55 FB over a .224 cal 55 BT, on long range varmints. Jimmy did his own research on the matter, and told me he was some what suprised the favorable numbers the long ogive 55Fb could generate.


With regards,
357Mag

 

[dmoran]

Jerry -

Great topic and input !.!.!
I agree, but don't think it matters if its a VLD or not, just that "speed" is not accuracy friendly to the long jacketed, very low drag, high BC bullets.

Back in my 243-Ackley days (prior 2004), when ever I pushed the 105/107 type bullets much over 3100-fps, precision accuracy depleted. But when I kept them more around the 3000-fps mark, precision accuracy was always better.
This was a big reason why I went to the 6Dasher (in 2004), since it was capable to pushing them to those "proven speeds". And do it from less powder and less recoil, which would yield efficiency and tracking gains.

While at the same time, for shorter/lighter 63 to 68 class bullets from my 100/200-BR days, the velocity level to precision capability was much higher, and they seemed to like it up to say 3400-ish.....

On a note to you, I have experienced some "crazy good" accuracy playing around with the 63/68's in my 7 to 8-twist 6Dasher barrels at very fast speeds (+++3400).

Best Regards Always
Donovan

 

[Hal]

Speed and the bullet's RPM all play a part in finding a good load.

Hal

 

[spclark]

Newer bullet designs benefit from improvements in bullet-making technology over the past few years as well as the contributions from computer modeling that wasn't available to anyone outside maybe NASA until around 1990. We have to give credit too to barrel manufacturers giving us quality products as one without the other is a losing proposition.

Still, physics is what limits our achievements. Faster & longer will always require the best available everything if the next shot is expected to follow the last one when the target's out there.

 

[jerrysharrett]

Jerry -

Great topic and input !.!.!
I agree, but don't think it matters if its a VLD or not, just that "speed" is not accuracy friendly to the long jacketed, very low drag, high BC bullets.

Back in my 243-Ackley days (prior 2004), when ever I pushed the 105/107 type bullets much over 3100-fps, precision accuracy depleted. But when I kept them more around the 3000-fps mark, precision accuracy was always better.
This was a big reason why I went to the 6Dasher (in 2004), since it was capable to pushing them to those "proven speeds". And do it from less powder and less recoil, which would yield efficiency and tracking gains.

While at the same time, for shorter/lighter 63 to 68 class bullets from my 100/200-BR days, the velocity level to precision capability was much higher, and they seemed to like it up to say 3400-ish.....

On a note to you, I have experienced some "crazy good" accuracy playing around with the 63/68's in my 7 to 8-twist 6Dasher barrels at very fast speeds (+++3400).

Best Regards Always
Donovan

Thanks Donovan,

Now that I have a response from a known long range shooter we can go on with the intent of this thread. (This ain't my first rodeo boys and girls)

What is to be considered is;

1- the bullet is spinning around 270,000 rpm so the spin dynamic is tremendous.

2- any in-bore yaw...at all..can be fatal to stable flight.

3- most individual pointy bullets shoot great and their BC is tops. The thing to be considered is what happens to the flight of that bullet that went out of the group that had even a slight amount of yaw at exit? And, how could the design be changed to prevent it?

.

.

 

[johara1]

This is not my first rodeo either….. If you have all your ducks in a row loading. The bullet out of the group is the 1 mph. pick up or let off that you can see. The other is under rotating a VLD it will throw a shot if you are on the edge. I do all testing at a 100 under control conditions, It had better shoot less than a .1 and i do look at hole size……… jim

 

[dmoran]

Jim -
Can't help but think your missing Jerry's intent, and the discussion he set fourth....
He's not looking for advise of what to do, or how to....
He's looking to discuss reasons for possible bullet instability with what he's calling "pointy" bullets. And he gives reference to beyond 3000-fps as a concerned point. And he stated:
"I'm simply throwing this thread out to see if anyone wants to elaborate or further expand on the idea of less pointy bullets."

Or at least that is how I read and replied to his thread...
Donovan

 

[johara1]

D, I've pushed the 103 well over 3100 and a slight decrease in accuracy because i couldn't reach the next node. No need to go that fast if the bullets asleep, it will shoot through most conditions. As far as flyers most are due bad bullets, and i had a bunch of them. inadequate powder weighing, neck tension and so on if those were ruled out then you move on.
What is does he call throwing a shot? I'm mystified because i don't have that problem, as stated above those are the reasons. Run the bullets on a Juenke to see if the bullets them selves have a problem as i do, eliminate variables. Three things, loading practice, insufficient twist or the bullets themselves. Yawing in the bore, i doubt it unless your chamber is crooked. You may want to call Vaper Trail and get some proven bullets and stability problem will be over……… it hard to relate to something i never saw that wasn't cured by what i have mentioned….. jim

 

[dmoran]

Jerry -

A bullet designed for quick stability, that still delivers a high BC profile to fight the wind at long range.
Some quick thought from me would be: a longer boat-tail (say another 0.030") on the current poly tipped 105-AMax design would be a good starting point for a 243/6mm, in my opinion.
Have always seen quick stability with them and have seen them work from slower twist barrels. And they yield the most consistent BC of any bullet that I have shot over a 2nd chronograph at distance. The consistency of the poly tip is the reason I give them.
The nose shape also seems to be fairly forgiving to seating depth, in my opinion as well.

The down fall I get from them, and just my own opinion here, is they don't "fight the wind" as good as SMK, VLD, etc.., and is why I would like to see the boat-tail longer on them. But strongly feel the rest of the design is real good as is.

2-Cents worth any how,
Donovan

 

[Raythemanroe]

Is he saying the bearing surface has an effect on bullet stability or the over all shape or just the pointy thingy majigy it's self?

Can we clarify the question? What aspect of the bullets shape relates to flyers?


My opinion is some barrels shoot short bearing pointed bullets better, which gives an edge inwind. Don't most folks use what works best for their setup?




Ray

 

[jerrysharrett]

This is not my first rodeo either….. If you have all your ducks in a row loading. The bullet out of the group is the 1 mph. pick up or let off that you can see. The other is under rotating a VLD it will throw a shot if you are on the edge. I do all testing at a 100 under control conditions, It had better shoot less than a .1 and i do look at hole size……… jim

What are you looking for when you do "look at hole size"? You are looking at hole shape mostly I.e. Is it round. If the hole is not round what does that tell you?


.

 

[johara1]

Two of the best shooting and most consistent bullets are the Vaper trail 103 VLD and the 104 BIB both of the bullets shoot in the mid zeros at 100 and 3" or less at 1000 with no stability problems both shoot well jumped. You will have no issues with them, if you do look elsewhere for the problem……. jim