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You benchrest guys; Any solutions for different powder lots that shoot different?

I just spent a combined 40 hours at my bench & the range refining handloads for my Rem 700 LVSF 221 Fireball. I'm almost out of a 11year old can of Reloader 7 and switched over to a new can of RL7 I bought last month. The old can gives me 5-shot tight 1/2" cluster groups & it was made here in the USA. The new 1lb RL7 can of powder is Swedish and shoots a scattered 7/8" group. The different countries of manufacture was a rude surprise when I read the label, and I said to myself "uh...oh". The granules doesn't look exactly the same either. (Yes, I'm aware of 4-5lb cans, but I don't compete, and a 1lb can last me 20-40 years. lol)

My question to you accuracy/target shooter guys is if I can expect those 1/2" groups to be lost forever. Or is it usually just a matter of tweaking the powder charge weight or changing the primer to try and get the same fine 1/2" accuracy that I had before? What's your own experience with this?
 
I too have been looking for the best approach when changing powder lot numbers, and failing accuracy with the new lot of powder.
Check the old speed and tune your new loads to closely match that for starters. After that Its always my seating depth and I start with
loading them a bit longer and closer to the lands unless my old load was in the lands to start with...then its a bit more work.
 
I might suggest as above, but also check the cleanliness of your barrel. Copper/carbon buildup.
 
The world of competitive Benchrest is constantly dealing with lot variations in powder, bullets, etc. The good news is that the accuracy potential of the rifle is very likely still there. The challenge will be to find a new recipe that the rifle likes.

Very often the key to regaining accuracy is to keep the same powder charge but try some TINY variations in seating depth -- from 1 to 5 thousandths in or out from where the bullets were previously seated. Vary small changes can make big differences. If the original charge still won't work, then try up or down by .1 grains and try again.

Taking enough reloading gear to the range to be able to try adjustments without making a round trip home to the bench is a huge timesaver!

I've been going through the same process with a 20 VarTarg and a couple new PPC barrels.


I've attached a target I use, but you can also design your own load development target...
http://www.shootershed.com/utils/app/index.html#/page

One method I use is to shoot three shot groups of varying charge weights across a bottom row of bulls, then pick the best group and work my way up that column with variations in seating depth. Once I find a good depth, then hold that depth while re-trying the charge variations again. Varying first one, then the other, will often zero you in on a good load quickly!

Rod
 

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The world of competitive Benchrest is constantly dealing with lot variations in powder, bullets, etc. The good news is that the accuracy potential of the rifle is very likely still there. The challenge will be to find a new recipe that the rifle likes.

Very often the key to regaining accuracy is to keep the same powder charge but try some TINY variations in seating depth -- from 1 to 5 thousandths in or out from where the bullets were previously seated. Vary small changes can make big differences. If the original charge still won't work, then try up or down by .1 grains and try again.

Taking enough reloading gear to the range to be able to try adjustments without making a round trip home to the bench is a huge timesaver!

I've been going through the same process with a 20 VarTarg and a couple new PPC barrels.


I've attached a target I use, but you can also design your own load development target...
http://www.shootershed.com/utils/app/index.html#/page

One method I use is to shoot three shot groups of varying charge weights across a bottom row of bulls, then pick the best group and work my way up that column with variations in seating depth. Once I find a good depth, then hold that depth while re-trying the charge variations again. Varying first one, then the other, will often zero you in on a good load quickly!

Rod
 
Just googled and found this post from May 1st 2004 from a member at the MarlinOwners.com Forums;

"RL-7 has changed in the last 3-4 years. it is now made by Bofors in Sweden for Alliant and is not the same powder as the old RL-7. i have run into some trouble using the new RL-7 in the 222 rem and other calibers. accuracy is terrible and pressures are higher for the same powder charge as the old RL-7 in most of my guns. it used to be my favorite powder but not now."

Perhaps the old USA can of RL7 I have was a lot older then the 11 years I had thought! I'm now pretty disgusted with having spent 6 trips (1 trip a week for 6 weeks) and many hours at the bench perfecting my RL7 load to tight clusters all for naught. (.....not having realized the powders are radically different because of totally different countries of production.) Lesson learned to carefully investigate my vast array of old powders before I develop loads with them!!!
 
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40hrs? Wow
Most br shooters intermix powders but have to work up loads over the days anyway so its not that bad. Once you get a can half gone pour the next one in. Its like a moonshiner’s yeast.

Seeking benchrest accuracy takes time;
6 sessions of weighing bullets, annealing, uniforming, and individually loading 25 to 35 cartridges, labeling run-out each session @ aprox 2.5 - 2.75 hours each session. PLUS, 6 trips to the range and back including cleaning the rifle @ half day each trip. = 40 hrs.
 
The world of competitive Benchrest is constantly dealing with lot variations in powder, bullets, etc. The good news is that the accuracy potential of the rifle is very likely still there. The challenge will be to find a new recipe that the rifle likes.

Very often the key to regaining accuracy is to keep the same powder charge but try some TINY variations in seating depth -- from 1 to 5 thousandths in or out from where the bullets were previously seated. Vary small changes can make big differences. If the original charge still won't work, then try up or down by .1 grains and try again.

Taking enough reloading gear to the range to be able to try adjustments without making a round trip home to the bench is a huge timesaver!

I've been going through the same process with a 20 VarTarg and a couple new PPC barrels.


I've attached a target I use, but you can also design your own load development target...
http://www.shootershed.com/utils/app/index.html#/page

One method I use is to shoot three shot groups of varying charge weights across a bottom row of bulls, then pick the best group and work my way up that column with variations in seating depth. Once I find a good depth, then hold that depth while re-trying the charge variations again. Varying first one, then the other, will often zero you in on a good load quickly!

Rod

I wish you’d post more Rod. Great stuff.
 
Sometimes your can just retune it, other times its different enough your barrel wont shoot it. The way I deal with it is, I wont even start load development with a component I do not have enough of to burn out the barrel. One of my best dasher barrels I ever owned shot an old lot of Varget, 3 new lots would not shoot in that barrel. I was able to scrounge up a few more pounds of older stuff and when I ran out that barrel was scrap.
 
Grab a pound of both Hodgdon H4227 and H4198 and continue on. And 'Lil Gun if you're shooting the 40 gr.'ers. ;)

Good shootin'. -Al
 
I just spent a combined 40 hours at my bench & the range refining handloads for my Rem 700 LVSF 221 Fireball. I'm almost out of a 11year old can of Reloader 7 and switched over to a new can of RL7 I bought last month. The old can gives me 5-shot tight 1/2" cluster groups & it was made here in the USA. The new 1lb RL7 can of powder is Swedish and shoots a scattered 7/8" group. The different countries of manufacture was a rude surprise when I read the label, and I said to myself "uh...oh". The granules doesn't look exactly the same either. (Yes, I'm aware of 4-5lb cans, but I don't compete, and a 1lb can last me 20-40 years. lol)

My question to you accuracy/target shooter guys is if I can expect those 1/2" groups to be lost forever. Or is it usually just a matter of tweaking the powder charge weight or changing the primer to try and get the same fine 1/2" accuracy that I had before? What's your own experience with this?
Hells Bells, I’m always tuning so an abbreviated ladder followed by a seating test is common practice at my house.
 
Next time, I suggest buying more powder of the same lot. I learned this over time. Now, I only buy powder in 8 pound jugs. Oh, and bullets by the 500, at least.
 
Next time, I suggest buying more powder of the same lot. I learned this over time. Now, I only buy powder in 8 pound jugs. Oh, and bullets by the 500, at least.
That's funny, I have about 80 one pound bottles scattered about. I think I'm looking for that Willy Wonka magic powder with the perfect load hidden in one bottle.... just wait I'll find it!
 
Many years ago I was browsing a Usenet forum (before web-browsers for the younger crowd) where someone mentioned that benchrest competitors could work up a load for a rifle in 30 rounds. I'd just finished putting 90 rounds through a 7mm Mag testing variations of powder, bullets, and primers. I grew up reloading and being a whiz at multiplication since the 9th grade, I knew that 6 powders times 5 bullets times 5 charge weights times 3 shot groups as listed in every manual on my shelf was a lot more than 30 rounds. I had to learn the secret.

First, us BR guys really can work up a load in 30 rounds, but we've already picked the bullet, primer, 1 or 2 powders, and a likely seating depth all for a rifle that we worked up a load for last week too. We tune (re-tune) for every weekend match, and we tune continuously between targets throughout the day. The keys are good components and equipment, and knowing what to watch for.

Assuming that you have a well-prepped rifle and optics, and an appropriate bullet for the barrel twist and intended target, tuning typically comes down to which powder, charge weight, and seating depth.

Powder: Cartridge efficiency is one of the cornerstones of BR accuracy. The most efficient loads are ones where the powder fills the case (95+% full) and burns are the rate where the powder is close to 99+% consumed when the bullet reaches the muzzle. The Berger Reloading Manual is one of very few that lists the fill ratio, but my go-to source for load development is the Quickload software program. At $150, it is about the same price as any three manuals from the big-box suppliers, and an infinitely better source of information.

One of the most useful functions of Quickload is to generate a table of loads that will meet some criteria... I queried it for all the charges that produced a maximum of 45000 psi peak pressure, and filled the case up to 104% of the case capacity (usually a slightly compressed load). It sorts the results by velocity...


Cartridge : .221 Rem Fireball
Bullet : .224, 50, Hornady V-MAX BT 22261
Useable Case Capaci: 18.395 grain H2O = 1.194 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.830 inch = 46.48 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 45000 psi, or 310 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 104 %
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

29 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 93%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Nitrochemie A/S 0300 103.4 18.0 1.17 3055 95.5 45000 5094 1.027 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2207 103.6 16.4 1.06 3023 99.1 45000 4707 1.035 ! Near Maximum !
ReloadSwiss RS 30 97.6 14.6 0.94 2991 100.0 45000 4152 1.031 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N125 *C 99.5 15.7 1.02 2967 99.6 45000 4361 1.045 ! Near Maximum !
ReloadSwiss RS 36 96.0 15.8 1.03 2955 97.9 45000 4481 1.046 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2219 104.0 18.2 1.18 2953 90.3 43864 4858 1.049 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-7 101.5 16.6 1.08 2953 96.2 45000 4599 1.056 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 200 *C 104.0 17.3 1.12 2952 95.8 41681 4826 1.090 ! Near Maximum !
SF033 fl, russ. 5,45x39 104.0 18.0 1.17 2949 97.0 38525 4923 1.094
PB Clermont PCL 508 *C (PCL223) 104.0 18.9 1.22 2946 88.9 43364 4878 1.058 ! Near Maximum !
SNPE Vectan SP 10 104.0 18.8 1.22 2945 88.9 43261 4882 1.059 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4227 96.4 15.0 0.97 2942 98.7 45000 4334 1.040 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N120 *C 104.0 16.1 1.04 2929 99.4 42315 4340 1.065 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H335 104.0 19.2 1.25 2929 88.4 43221 4863 1.060 ! Near Maximum !
.
.
. [There are several more suitable choices listed...]
.



Charge Weight: For bolt action rifles, I try to target a charge weight the puts the peak pressure about 5% below maximum.This gives a little headroom for increased pressure from seating bullet into the lands. Once the charge weight is in the right range, very small adjustments (say .1 gr on a Fireball case, .3 on a -06 case) can be all that is need to tune out some vertical.

Seating Depth: A lot of reloaders will describe their seating depth as just jumping or jammed, but there is actually huge opportunity for tuning in the seating depth. For a non-VLD bullet, there is typically about .030" of seating depth variation from where the bullet is "hard-jammed" (pushed into the case by the rifling) back to the "touch" where a bullet is just barely contacting the rifling. Old timers would try to gauge this by examining the rifling marks left on the bullets. A better method is to make a dummy round seating the bullet too long and let the rifling shove the bullet back in the case. Then measure the cartridge length to the bullet ogive as baseline for setting up your seating die.

There are two areas in seating depth to avoid: stay away from the pure hard-jam (not every bullet will engrave the same way so you'll get a lot of variation), and similarly that length about .030" off the hard jam for most bullets will result in some bullets touching while others don't. The minor variations from one bullet to the next will wreck your consistency.


How much difference can seating depth make? A lot!

Seating a bullet to touch the lands significantly increases the amount of pressure that builds in the case before the bullet starts to move. This is known as the Shot Start (Initiation) Pressure. When off the lands, an accepted value is around 3625 psi. Touching the lands can increase that value to over 10,000 psi. This can be equivalent to 1-3 grains more powder!

As an example, here is some research on the OP's 221 Fireball. I assumed a 50gr VMax, standard pressures, and a 24" barrel for this. Below are a couple charts from Quickload that show the difference in peak pressure just from changing seating depth.

*Note*: I don't own a Fireball, so these are just guesses, but in the first chart, I'd consider Rel7 to be a bit too slow... I'd like to see the powder 95% consumed at halfway down the barrel, not 20". In the second chart, jamming the bullet jumps the peak pressure which also results in an increased burn rate, making the powder seem a better choice. My own experiments have shown that there is some variability in the Start Pressure depending on neck tension, bullet design, and how hard into the lands the bullet is jammed.


Bullet Off The Lands

QL_221_50VMAX_R7.jpg



Same Load, Bullet Touching The Lands




QL_221_50VMAX_R7_2.jpg
 
Cub,
Thanks for all the input. It turns out that my barrel is 22", 1-14 twist. I exclusively shoot 40 VMax. The 50 Vmax groups were terrible. (The 40Vmax bullets weighed nearly the same very consistently, while the 50Vmax did not.) IMR 4198 and AA1680 did NOT group as well as my old US made RL7. My Hornady Vmax have a slight edge in accuracy over my Nosler 40gr Varmageddon. Rem 7 1/2 and WSR primers work well and are even in performance.

This weekend I bought LilGun for $30. So, I'm going to test that at about a starting load of around 15 grains. If I don't have promising & consistent results with that, then I will revert back to trying more tests with the new can of Swedish RL7. If you look at my photos, you will see why I got disgusted with my new can of Swedish powder and I just as soon switch to testing new loads with Lil Gun. It can't shoot worse! LOL.

IMG_1859.JPG
IMG_1858.JPG
Old can of USA made RL7 Powder in photo above.


Same range visit and conditions when I fired the group below with new can of Sweden RL7 powder. The hell?? LOL
IMG_1857.JPG
 
That last group looks like a weather report with the bullets getting pushed around by the wind. Not much vertical in that group, so that’s a good thing, IMO. You may not be as far away as you think.

I’d go back to 3 shot groups. I’d play around with seating depth at that exact powder charge as shown in your last target, as well as up and down in powder charge at .1 grain increments using the Tony Boyer method.

I wouldn’t change primers. I’d shoot the same primers that originally worked, because I don’t like adding too many variables in to the equation. Better to change one thing at a time. Once back in tune with a repeatable load, then I’d play around with primers...maybe.

I’m assuming you have a solid set up on the bench. You are obviously striving for one hole groups. IMHO, those little bullets will get pushed around a good bit by the wind. Try testing in good repeatable conditions using wind flags of some sort. Short of that, it is all just a guess. I don’t think you are that far away from finding tune with the new powder. Good luck.
 
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Thanks JM,
I'm already using 3 wind flags spread out over 100 yards, and I do wait for the breeze to stop. These were fired 20 minutes apart.

In another thread a guy thinks my bedding is the problem. He looked at both the photos and he sees horizontal in both my groups. LOL. This is a used gun with a light sporter contour Remington VLSF barreled action I put in an HS Precision stock. It's not a benchrest gun with a Lilja or Bartlein barrel, and so maybe the top photo of 5 shots covered with a dime is as good as it gets. I'm OK with that, but the bottom group is unacceptable to me.
 

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